Private sale referred to by agent!

[TheBacon]

Simon

I just re-read my post and I understand what you are saying. Indeed my suggested course of action seems fairly unethical too eh ?

What I mean is -
1. By all means try to get an offer
2. Dont set out to offend the agent, but their request is just that, not a directive to be followed on pain of death...
3. Remind him, if it comes to it, that he has no agreement with the vendor, and the vendor is in no way obligated to do anything.

Point 3 may require talking to the agency or some other body, to remind the agent that he cannot just demand payment.

I do believe the agents actions are somewhat unethical. It may not be illegal but there are other factors which render it unethical in my opinion.

Agents often use high pressure tactics to get the result they are after. This is not directly stated here, but neither is it said that the agent was gentle and simply 'suggested' something. From the tone of the first post it would seem the agent was indeed 'pressing' not just 'asking' for a fee.

If you havent noticed, a lot of people simply back down or give in when confronted by someone acting in an 'official' capacity - lawyer, doctor, even sales people, because they assume the other person knows more.

I think some token of appreciation may be in order if the agents buyer does take the property. Perhaps the agent spends 4 hours on this sale. 4 hours x $50/hr = $200. Perhaps a case of wine instead of just one bottle might be good?

However, this is if the vendor wants to, as a token of appreciation. Not because he/she 'should' pay a commission that the agent is 'entitled' to.

I think its a grey area, perhaps we sit on opposite sides of this fence, Simon?

Cheers

TheBacon

 

[Simon]

No, I don't think we disagree much on this one Bacon.

I would ask that any of the people who sugested reporting him to explain to me why they would do this and what behaviour would they report?

I am not trying to be argumentative - I am genuinely puzzled as to what law he may have breached or even how it may be seen as unethical.

I would love every agent in town to bring their clients to my open house if I was selling in todays market

Poor old agents - they do anything and everyone assumes they are trying to break a law.

Cheers,

 

[Peter 14.7]

Report him.

He's unethical & should be drummed out of the industry.

It's only by the actions of investors & people like your friend that we can get rid of these people from the real estate industry.

Cheers,

Aceyducey

I agree!!!

He is preying on the innocent , which you friend may have been, for not your help.

Screw Him I say

Peter 147

 

[Peter 14.7]

I would ask that any of the people who sugested reporting him to explain to me why they would do this and what behaviour would they report?

I am not trying to be argumentative - I am genuinely puzzled as to what law he may have breached or even how it may be seen as unethical.


Cheers,

What Law you ask, I am no Lawyer but lets say FRAUD!

The Agent was either:

Trying to scam/trick the owner into paying for something they didn’t have to. FRAUD

Trying to threaten/imply the sale would walk if they did not play ball EXTORTION & BLACKMAIL

This is black and white, Simon. Whilst you and I and most readers on this forum would immediately sense a rat, the average little old lady, single mum, or worst intellectually challenged person would believe his "advice" and not doubt sign an agreement making it legal.

And the agent would sleep well at night thinking he had helped them out.

I still say Screw Him

Peter 147

 

[Simon]

Fraud is obtaining a financial gain by deception.

Where's the deception here? Jax - did this fellow tell lies or put any pressure on the vendor?

So what is the scam? Still can't see it folks.

Drummed out of the industry for what?

Come on folks - let's have a reason to crucify someone.

Standard practice I learnt on my REA course (I never was one tho) is to ring all the private sales ads and ask for a 5 day open listing to take their buyers through. Also to see if the private seller is having no luck and out of frustration decides to take the listing.

Owners can say yes or no. By all your measures this too should be illegal?

I think we all need to see both sides of an argument before we jump to conclusions here.

 

[pennyk]

Simon,

My understanding of the Real Estate Act in NSW is that unless the agent has a signed sales agreement, filled in completely, with no blanks, then they have no right to a commission. So, even if it is their own listing, if the form is not filled in correctly, they cannot claim a commission legally.

They are also not able to obtain financial reward from kickbacks without informing their clients. For example, if they get a discount for newspaper advertising, they need to inform the vendor.

Doing my real estate certificate, the thing that has struck me the most is the amount of legislation covering every little thing in the real estate industry.

Penny

 

[Simon]

Penny,

Absolutely true in every respect.

This agent in question wasn't entitled to any payment - I think we all agree on that.

However if he has introduced a eventual purchaser then perhaps he feels entitled to a goodwill payment - some may well agree.

I wouldn't pay him a standard commission myself.

Cheers,

 

[Peter 14.7]

Penny,

Absolutely true in every respect.

This agent in question wasn't entitled to any payment - I think we all agree on that.

However if he has introduced a eventual purchaser then perhaps he feels entitled to a goodwill payment - some may well agree.

I wouldn't pay him a standard commission myself.

Cheers,

Simon,

I respect your logic but you are failing to understand that the average person has not completed the REA course like yourself. Nor are they experienced in business. They are just simple honest folk.

That how scammers get them.

Lets see what this agent did:

Interesting situation my friend finds herself in.
She is selling her house currently privately, and though has been inundated by agents wanting to list it, has decided to go on her own

She has made it very clear she does not wish to list with an agent.

and is having good results so far.

She is having sucess at gaining interest

Last open house, however, a couple walk in accompanied

Their choice to visit during HER open house

by a REA.

What is his role, friend or buyers agent, provocative move considering it isher open house and she has made it clear she wants to sell privately. I wonder how other REA would feelif I turned up with my REA in tow?

He then proceeds to remind my friend that,

He raises the isssue of payment despite clearly knowing she has elected to sell privately

because he introduced this couple (who may well end up buying the property) that he should be entitled to some commission!

Should. The word in question. We dont know exactly what he said but I bet you it was not "BTW you owe me nothing should the couple buy but if you wish to pay me for my unsolicitored effort that would be appreciated but again under law, I am due nothing.

Simon.

As informed professionals, it is very easy to forget how the less informed can be scammed.

Example: My own 73 mother was caught in this scam.

Knock, Knock, Hello, we are from Melboune Water Inspections ( official name) and today only inspecting HWS for free.

Oh look your anode has rusted (as designed) and your over flow leaks when pushed ( as it should). You should get it replaced which BTW we can do now for a discount, only $250. You dont want the HWS to rust do you!!!!

Unable to contract me and under pressure sales system she agreed. When I called back to her message and told her she was scammed she cried and my sister had to go over to console her. $250 to her is one weeks pension. Money she uses to eat with.

Luckily I ran the Head office and threatened legal action. They came back and changed it all back.

BUT....Had I not been so sure of my rights and building knowledge I may have hesitated and or believed it was a lost cause. Or worst, had my mum like many elderly persons be without someone to call then they would have scammed her.

All legal but unethical, Peter 147

 

[Jerry Maguire]

If you were to sell a house and you have your ad on the internet
not with any agents
during open day you have only agents bringing people
through your place and no one else

The question here is:
1 Would you pay them a commission?
Yes/No/Maybe/Report them

To me there is no harm in paying them a commission since they are the ones that get you the sale

How much to pay them is up to you

Report them cos they he is unethical he is just asking you for a commission and if you doesn't want to pay him and he help you get the sale then that's fine but remember that he help you to sell your place by bringing the buyers to have a look at your place
I do believe in one thing if someone were to help me in some ways when i needed the help i'll help them back (karma)
or else if i will owe them forever
what goes around comes around

We as Aussie or consumers wanted more all the time and now we are a lot more educated cos of the TV and info out there for us to read and see and even listen to on radios
so our BS antenna is always up when some sales person or a knock on the door
If someone were to come into your house and try to sell you any products with your BS antenna up and you see it on TV already and you still get cheated on your money for the first time you will learn from the lesson
but if you were to get cheated twice it will be your fault cos you did not learn from the first lesson

In QLD they have got funny laws i'm not sure about NSW

We (here in QLD) are not even allowed to take a purchaser on a property without an authourity sigend by the vendor. So I don't know where this guys gets off! And they wonder why we get such a bad name.

does that means they the property that you are selling is not what the buyer wants but as the buyer is looking at the property next door which is going for sale cos the next door neighbour decided to sell it and the buyers decided to have a look at the same day and you are going to tell your buyer
sorry i can't show you the property next door cos they haven't sign the docs yet!!!

there are so many different laws out there does everyone follows it
if you tell me that you do you are lying

the laws says 40km/h roadworks or even school zone
how many people here stays with that limit for 15km on the freeway at 40km/h?

Regards
Jerry

 

[NormH]

Jerry so what you are saying is

you are at home on a Saturday afternoon, slobbing out on the lounge eating pizza and drinking coke while watching your favourite whatever on TV when in the background you hear what sounds like the nextdoor neighbours lawnmower fire up.

About 1/2 hr later a knock on the front door and there is some guy standing there with a great smile on his dial and covered in sweat (40degrees outside) when you ask him what he wants, he points to your nice newly mowed lawns and says, that he wants some payment for the great job he has just done mowing your lawn.

Now he was never asked to do this, nor invited to via any obsure sign on your front lawn that he would be paid.

You are saying that you would pay him cos he has done the job anyway?

your words "To me there is no harm in paying them a commission since they are the ones that get you the sale "
end quote.

I fail to see the difference? the guy is doing this for some motiviation that is only to his benefit and his "methods", in my opinion leave him open to a "get outta here", "pull the other one" or speak to your clients for some commission but if they are to buy from me, I'll be keeping all my money.

Norman

 

[Simon]

Peter

I do understand your argument, especially with the illustration regarding your mother's unfortunate brush with a con man.

I am not convinced that this guy acted unethically however can see the potential for an agent to browbeat a commission out of someone like your mother. I would agree that this was unethical.

Some might agree that the agent was providing the vendor with another option. "Here is a sale less comission if you want it" An open market place is best isn't it?

However I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and also look towards the positive side of any situation unless proven otherwise - guess it is the type of fellow I am, but it seems to work for me.

I certainly cannot see any justification to drum him out of the industry for acted illegallly as suggested by others. I guess being a REA brings a certain stigma that means people automatically assume the worst of them and we know this isn't true of most.

Norman - your analogy is flawed. Jerry does have a sign up asking for his lawn to be mown - via the open house and for sale sign. Perhaps some would think the young fellow who mowed it displayed some business acumen and initiative - esp if he cheerfully moved on after payment was refused! Not unlike those guys who clean my windscreen for free at the lights

All the best folks

 

[NormH]

Peter

Norman - your analogy is flawed. Jerry does have a sign up asking for his lawn to be mown - via the open house and for sale sign. Perhaps some would think the young fellow who mowed it displayed some business acumen and initiative - esp if he cheerfully moved on after payment was refused! Not unlike those guys who clean my windscreen for free at the lights

All the best folks

I confess, I also considered using the free windscreen analogy as well

Me

 

[Jerry Maguire]

you are at home on a Saturday afternoon, slobbing out on the lounge eating pizza and drinking coke while watching your favourite whatever on TV when in the background you hear what sounds like the nextdoor neighbours lawnmower fire up.

About 1/2 hr later a knock on the front door and there is some guy standing there with a great smile on his dial and covered in sweat (40degrees outside) when you ask him what he wants, he points to your nice newly mowed lawns and says, that he wants some payment for the great job he has just done mowing your lawn.

Now he was never asked to do this, nor invited to via any obsure sign on your front lawn that he would be paid.

Norm you just say that you hear it but you did not see it

I confess, I also considered using the free windscreen analogy as well

This you can actually see it

Last open house, however, a couple walk in accompanied by a REA. He then proceeds to remind my friend that, because he introduced this couple (who may well end up buying the property) that he should be entitled to some commission!

She can see the agent bringing people into the house

Have you got an open mind Norm?
Open like a Parachute or
Close like a Padlock?

You are just saying 2 different things here

Regards
Jerry

 

[NormH]

She can see the agent bringing people into the house

Have you got an open mind Norm?
Open like a Parachute or
Close like a Padlock?

You are just saying 2 different things here

Regards
Jerry



Not sure the inference here, I was only saying that the "gesture" was being done without any prior agreement thus no obligation to handover any monies. I will also confess that it was a bit long winded but that was due to an attempt to inject some humour.

Norman

 

[David E-Noosa]

No appointment to act signed (PAMD 22a in QLD) so no commission
Its a breach of the act (Section 128 Property Agents and Motor Dealers Act)

An agent is not entitled to sue for, recover or retain a reward or expence for the performance of any activity as a real estate agent unless at the time the activity was performed by a person:

a) held a real estate agents licence;
b) was authorised under the licence to perform the activity; and
c) was properly appointed by the client to be charged with the reward or the expense.

Its very simple really.

 

[Peter 14.7]

Peter

I do understand your argument, especially with the illustration regarding your mother's unfortunate brush with a con man.

I am not convinced that this guy acted unethically however can see the potential for an agent to browbeat a commission out of someone like your mother. I would agree that this was unethical.

Some might agree that the agent was providing the vendor with another option. "Here is a sale less comission if you want it" An open market place is best isn't it?

However I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and also look towards the positive side of any situation unless proven otherwise - guess it is the type of fellow I am, but it seems to work for me.

I certainly cannot see any justification to drum him out of the industry for acted illegallly as suggested by others. I guess being a REA brings a certain stigma that means people automatically assume the worst of them and we know this isn't true of most.

Norman - your analogy is flawed. Jerry does have a sign up asking for his lawn to be mown - via the open house and for sale sign. Perhaps some would think the young fellow who mowed it displayed some business acumen and initiative - esp if he cheerfully moved on after payment was refused! Not unlike those guys who clean my windscreen for free at the lights

All the best folks

Hi Simon

I appreciate your comment. I guess we will never know the full details. I acknowlege Agent have a bad rap. Like Solicitors or Bank Managers.

I think this point has run its course.

peter 147

 

[Jacque]

Still waiting to hear the outcome of this with my friend. Will post and let you know the end result

 

[Simon]

Hi Simon

I appreciate your comment. I guess we will never know the full details. I acknowlege Agent have a bad rap. Like Solicitors or Bank Managers.

I think this point has run its course.

peter 147

........and Mortgage Brokers too.

 

[Jacque]

In the end, the buyers reneged and the sale didn't go through. My friend is now back to square one with her private sale, but is still considering doing some type of conjunction deal with selected agents in her area.

 

[wish-ga]

Sorry your friend's buyer didn't go through with the sale. Hope she gets a good sale in the near future.

Thank you for posting this thread anyway. It was very interesting to hear how the private sale scenario could play out if an REA chose to try it on without any contract with the vendor.

Thanks Jacque for sharing