Qantas Grounded?

[Dazz]

I would be happy to pay the double - triple prices that Qantas demands if the level of service, comfort and care were twice as good as virgin.

I'll call BS on that one.

 

[wylie]

As we are all commenting on airline issues other than the initial thread, here are my observations about our recent flights and safety demonstrations etc.

Someone we know was "let go" several years ago from Ansett (I think) when all (?) of the "hosties" were required to apply for Jetstar (?). This lady at the time (stunning blond) was about 35 and had flown for years.

The hiring process with the young, hip airline consisted on a group interview, many very young, early 20s. They each had one or two minutes to state their name, and tell the room about themselves, likes, dislikes etc. The whole group then had about ten minutes to write and perform a song about the new airline.

She didn't get the gig. For me... I would rather an experienced hostie in any sort of emergency over one who is pretty and can sing and dance .

Secondly, after flying Singapore Airlines four times recently, I was amazed after each flight (long haul - 8 hours and 13 hours x 2) at the grubs the hosties must put up with. People in front of us groping each other and lying all over each other (get a room!!), others getting up and down to the overhead lockers and clogging up the aisle chatting to acquaintances in seats nearby.

The bit that amazed me was how disgusting dirty and messy people left their surroundings. Our seats looked like when we boarded, but some people leave food on the floor, wrappers, rubbish. Truly amazing. I wonder what their houses look like.

These Singapore Airline hosties (women and men) are very gentle people, but I was wondering what they really think about some of the "cattle" they must deal with day in and day out.

 

[sash]

They probably made a joke about in their serving galley in Malay or Hokkein and laughing ...if only they could send them to an Indonesian abatoir for their just deserts.

There would be no howls of protests then.

Oh....if Qantas/Jetstar does not get its act together...then it maybe told shooo by Scoot! ...see below

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel...s-budget-longhaul-carrier-20111101-1mth2.html

These Singapore Airline hosties (women and men) are very gentle people, but I was wondering what they really think about some of the "cattle" they must deal with day in and day out.

 

[wylie]

They probably made a joke about in their serving galley in Malay or Hokkein and laughing ...if only they could send them to an Indonesian abatoir for their just deserts.

I'm sure they do talk about some passengers with scorn and frustration, but how difficult it must be to keep that smile on their faces sometimes.

 

[pennyk]

I fly mainly with Asian airlines internationally and always in business class.
The steward/ess's generally seem to be quite old..... certainly older than the ones I've seen on Qantas.

They seem to move towards the front of the plane as they get closer to retirement.

 

[Ideo]

I'll call BS on that one.

I'm not sure what you are calling bs on

I pay extra for international flights on good airlines (not Qantas, BA or anything American, basically). But it is not that much in reality.

For longer distance domestic flights (Syd-Cairns for instance) the average virgin price is $170-180.

The average Qantas price is around the $350-400.

I personally don't think it is worth it for what you currently get. A shoddy meal and some cheap booze, combined with worse standards of customer care and no better comfort. Woohoo! Let's rejoice.

 

[chrispy]

I think the extra is worth it for the Cairns flight when you arrive at a decent hour of the day, not midnight and then try and get to your hotel....no thanks ... I pay the extra. I currently have a flight to Cairns on Qantas at a decent hour of the day for under $600 return.

Chris

 

[Ideo]

I think the extra is worth it for the Cairns flight when you arrive at a decent hour of the day, not midnight and then try and get to your hotel....no thanks ... I pay the extra. I currently have a flight to Cairns on Qantas at a decent hour of the day for under $600 return.

Chris

Well, yes.

It does depend on flight times etc but all things equal such as arrival, departure and the like

I'm flying to Cairns next week on Virgin. Good flight times for me, and it is just under $300 return.

 

[BayView]

I think the extra is worth it for the Cairns flight when you arrive at a decent hour of the day, not midnight and then try and get to your hotel....no thanks ... I pay the extra. I currently have a flight to Cairns on Qantas at a decent hour of the day for under $600 return.

Chris

You all know me; hate following the pack....

We try to pick flights which leave a day earlier, come home a day later, take off much earlier, get home later.

Miss the crowds, the traffic and save plenty. Takes you out of your comfort zone a bit, but it's worth it.

 

[shuggy]

difficult question to answer, some comments:
(a) Qantas is an airline company, therefore definately not a share to 'buy and hold', its part cyclical and part 'popularity' play. (I need both these factors, and buying at the low or near low of both).
(b) NTA is $2.45 so theoretically buying somewhere below this price should be 'safe' after allowing for additional costs to come out of the NTA. ie NTA represents the net asset value, hence roughly the breakup value, if everything is flogged (but you would have additional costs, eg redundancies, lease obligations etc that need to be deducted, what is the 'price of these costs???') On the 'plus side' what is the value of the Qantas frequent flyer program??? Obviously if broken up, this wouldnt be used for Qantas but the program would still have value to another airline because of its network.
(c) Qantas generates good cash flow and has always generated good cashflow. The underlying company is profitable, but this cash flow is not free cash flow. Aircrafts are expensive and need replacing, if one looks back through 10 years of financial history we can see good cash flow, but every year heavy capital expenditure (hence why airlines are not good long term investments). So effectively the money comes in and it goes out the door again.
(d) we need to see the outcome of this dispute. Its very important that Qantas wins this battle, otherwise it will just be death by a thousand cuts. I am not worried about the short term customer impact, customers can be wooed back, but if the cost structure is ineffecient, it doesnt matter if one has customers or not, because they cant make a quid from it.
(e) when reviewing the 'value' of qantas, the AU$ has a huge impact. High AU$ is good for jet fuel, international travel, but all the airlines that move out of australia get this benefit. In my opinion the 'value' comes from a lower AU$ where this is less labour cost pressure (as overseas labour costs in US$ increase).

The best situation is if everything is resolved in qantas favour, but the market focuses on the short term impact of customer anger and belts the share price down further. This would enable someone with a longer term investment horizon to invest with more confidence, because the share price will recover as customers recover.

On the other hand, how many other people are thinking like me, and what will be the outcome on the shares.

So another opportunity might be to buy in the darkest of days, when the stock has few supporters. The issues have not been resolved, customers are angry.
Share price is likely to tank further because of increased risk.

On this second situation i need a bigger discount, maybe around $1.20 (big enough discount to NTA), but i couldnt go heavy, i would need to be prepared to dollar average, and i still would face the issue of unkown risk.

Sorry if i cant provide exact 'pricing' that i would buy, but hopefullyy it presents some insights into how i value things. I am always looking at risk vs return, and in the current environment both risk and return are moving around.

Great comments, always interesting to read how you value things.

 

[shuggy]

You all know me; hate following the pack....

We try to pick flights which leave a day earlier, come home a day later, take off much earlier, get home later.

Miss the crowds, the traffic and save plenty. Takes you out of your comfort zone a bit, but it's worth it.

That sounds like following the pack.
What I don't understand is why people rush to board and disembark.. they just stand in lines but still have to collect their luggage with everyone else. I'm always last on the plane so i can get an empty seat and last off if i have any check in but usually only take carry on these days .

 

[pennyk]

That sounds like following the pack.
What I don't understand is why people rush to board and disembark.. they just stand in lines but still have to collect their luggage with everyone else. I'm always last on the plane so i can get an empty seat and last off if i have any check in but usually only take carry on these days .

on domestic flights, there will often not be room for carry on if you board towards the end. I like to get on quickly, so I know my carry on is in the best spot to get it down and get out of the flight quickly when we land.

 

[Deltaberry]

I admire the stewards, and find most do a good job of putting up with very tedious conditions in their work.

The sad reality of a job like an airlline steward/ess is they are doing the same thing over, and over, and over again every single day...with herds of cattle.

For those who deal directly with the public in large numbers in their jobs on a daily basis, and who see just how rude and self-centred folk can be, then it's no wonder they are glazed over with the "whatever" attitude stamped on their forehead after a time. I've noticed it mostly with the longer term "older" stewards; the ones who've been doing it for 20 years. The fresh-faced younger ones are still pretty good as a rule, but they haven't been war-torn for that long yet.

Just look at one example: the ridiculous routine of explaining and demonstrating the safety features every flight; 95% of the passengers are not watching or listening, and yet the staff have to do it every-single-flight, and when the plane crashes none of it will mean a jot. I've yet to see a plane crash in the ocean and see 300 people floating around in buoyancy vests (maybe that plane that landed on the Hudson the other year)

Another is the Maccas workers at the counter; I honestly don't know how they can put up with it for a long time - many people these days are downright rude, no manners and no respect and treat all "waiting" and service staff like their own slave.

On other (non-Australian) airlines maybe the service is better because the airline might be able to fire their @rses on the spot if if they don't measure up - unlike in Aus....so they have to be very good at providing service to pain-in-the-@rse customers.

I always make a point of thanking the stewards for looking after us as I walk past them at the exit; it may just make their day.

They're paid for it so should put up with it. If they don't like it, go get another job.

I'm all for market competition. If Qantas staff want to take their customers for granted and Qantas/unions don't want to do anything about it, I am more than happy to fly other airlines where stewards know they can be fired if they don't measure up.

 

[Aaron_C]

They're paid for it so should put up with it. If they don't like it, go get another job.

I'm all for market competition. If Qantas staff want to take their customers for granted and Qantas/unions don't want to do anything about it, I am more than happy to fly other airlines where stewards know they can be fired if they don't measure up.

And here I was thinking that pay isn't good enough for someone to do their job

 

[Deltaberry]

Ah well the difference is...

If they get paid, they do a bad job.
If they don't get paid, they don't do their job.

It's ingrained in culture. Can't be helped.

 

[Aaron Sice]

y'know, i just realised that if QANTAS employees stopped paying Union Fees as an automatic deduction form their wages, it's be pretty close to the amount they're asking for in pay rises.....

 

[BayView]

That sounds like following the pack.

If it was following the pack, then wouldn't these factors I describe be the more expensive tickets - as is the case with the "peak hour" selections of flights that most people want to have.

For example; no-one wants the 5am (departing Melb) flights on Thurs, or the 10pm flights back from wherever (to Melb) on a Monday night.

and so on.

 

[shuggy]

Yeah fair enough

 

[Doomy]

I hope Alan Joyce is happy with his sad little self. He has done nothing but destroy Qantas as the australian carrier since Dixon annointed him as ceo. What a despicable little man. His executives bought the A380 and yet it uses 16000 tonnes of fuel per hour when he should have ordered the boeing aircraft that burn 11000 tonnes per hour.
.

If your talking about the new Boeing 787 a quick look tells me it will carry around 300 pax (max) compared to 525 on a A380. Do some quick calcs on the fuel use per passenger at your suggested usage and you'll find the A380 more efficient (I assume you mean liters per hour as against tonnes)

The A380 has also been in service since Sept 2008 with Qantas where the Dreamliner has only just had it's first delivery to Nippon Air.

Good choice Qantas I say.

 

[Dazz]

....ouch, someone doing some solid calculations....instead of commenting on the height of the man.

so anyway, back on topic....what type of toothpaste does he use ??