White guilt and racism double-standards

G'day

I might be wrong but I thought that the first British people to arrive were not immigrants, but people who were taking over the country to create a bloody big gaol/jail to put all their criminals in?

Slim:)

i thought the idea of the colony was more than just a gaol tho? else why be a settler?

the indonesians settled australia first and evolved into aboriginals. the british didn't respect that and invaded. a new country was subsequently formed

I don't think aboriginal rights is conistent with the teachings of the bible tho is it? which makes it really hard to have a court case on the matter and swear onthe bible.
 
Don't forget - natural selection would have favoured those who were a little 'wary' of venturing off into the middle of the 'other, different looking tribe' to give them a hug and say hi. More often than not that would have ended with a rock to the head.

Obviously, we have this other thing known as logic to override this. Even if it is stupid to let this rule your decision making processes, it is a natural feeling to some extent.

And yes I agree Australia is not significantly more racist than any other multicultural country.

I think our low power distance (think - sitting in the front of taxi's vs UK/US/Muslim practices) and our style of humour (i.e. having a laugh at ourselves (think Kath & Kim) vs US 'situation comedy' (think Seinfield - what is the deal with?) vs UK 'class system' (think Faulty Towers)) probably means we're just a little more open about it.

@GGG - your experience in Korea sounds like my experience in Japan. Foreign devils!

I'm all for multiculturalism, however it's no wonder we have some problems when too much of one new group in a short period of time. There is one group in particular I feel is copping it a bit, yet I can't blame them - if I were them I'd move here too.
 
OK, here's a not so concise attempt to clarify my views....which seem to need clarifying because as soon as I stand up for the values of our Anglo/English heritage (think political and legal systems, property rights, welfare, education, Christian rooted compassion and volunteer spirit), those with only two pigeon holes to slot people (either low browed red neck racist or enlightened new age high minded humanitarian), a few want to label moi as the former.


- I accept Australia needs migration.

- I don't care stongly where migrants come from as long as they have thought hard about why they want to come to Australia, with its predominant anglo Christian heritage and values, and english language.....and after thinking hard about it, have determined they want the opportunity and freedom our prevailing system offers more than they want to hold to the values and system they are so motivated to flee.

- I expect migrants to study, understand, and respect Australia's Anglo Christian heritage, and its role in evolving the political, legal, law enforcement, health care, and education system that has delivered us all the benefits of the democracy we enjoy today. Sure, I accept it isn't perfect, but show me anywhere else in the world that is better....and why we should change our system.

- I expect migrants to have the attitude that Australian citizenship is a highly valued privilege granted to them, not a right.....and that there are thousands, if not millions, who are competing with them for the privilege to come here.

- I expect migrants, especially from developing nations, to understand that Australian citizenship is a shortcut to a better lifestyle in a developed nation. The better lifestyle they have the privilege of experiencing, is something previous citizens with particular values have built. This should underscore the sense of privilege they feel in being here.

- I expect intending migrants to think carefully about their fellow countrymen, who they leave behind to continue a life compromised by developed world standards. I expect them to think about why they don't stay where they came from and organize themselves into strong groups who lift their country up to a developed standard, rather than fleeing it.

- I expect migrants to come here with a hell of a lot more than an economic opportunistic motivation, or an eye on our overly generous welfare benefits.

- I expect migrants to come here with a sense of community, not a sense of insularism.

- I expect migrants not to treat Australia as a remittance economy, from which they can extract capital to send back to their place of origin to fund wars, crime, and black market economies.

- I expect migrants come here to start a new life of new hope, rather than cling to the prejudices, nationalism, and fighting they may be fleeing.

- I accept that migrants accepted on humanitarian grounds and as part of family streaming, are on the whole a net economic cost to Australia for several decades after they arrive. This is born out in many official government reports. though I also accept there are exceptions, though these are not enough to counter the non exceptions. Therefore, I believe Australia should only accept as many of these category of migrants as does not adversely effect the prevailing quality of life. Those who argue otherwise should openly declare how many of the world's millions who seek a better life overseas, Australia should accept each year.

- I accept that Australia has unskilled and uneducated people who do not have their job security protected by a professional organization, like the professions do. These people are more likely to have migrants compete with them for work, education spots, and housing (in an undersupplied market). Hence, it is natural they may develop animosity towards migrants if the migration rate is not sensitive to their needs. I expect our government to weight this factor when setting our migration rate.

- I accept Australia's elites support high migration out of self interest.
High migration will increase asset prices due to population pressure, capitalists will benefit from downwards pressure on unskilled and skilled wages. A larger population increases market size which increase potential profits.

- I accept the greatest antagonists to a high migrant intake are the unions, extreme green groups, and those from poorer socioeconomic groups.

- I accept that migrants from differing backgrounds will not compete 'equally' in a developed world economy. Whether it is due to their command of english, age, education level, cultural or religious views, accumulated capital, or whatever, Australia can not ignore this when setting its immigration policy.


These are my views. I accept a minority with a different mindset and motives, do not share them.

I expect you will continue to be dissapointed !
 
Don't forget - natural selection would have favoured those who were a little 'wary' of venturing off into the middle of the 'other, different looking tribe' to give them a hug and say hi. More often than not that would have ended with a rock to the head.
.


Nah. It's the other way around. Natural selection rewarded the risk takers.

The cautious apes that stayed in the safety of the tree's are now Chimps and gorilla's. The risk taking apes who ventured out onto the much more dangerous savana evolved to became humans.

The humans who stayed beside that drying waterhole in Africa died of thirst when a herd of elephants barged in and bogged it up. The humans who moved on over the land found a whole new fresh river, crocodile infested, then crossed it, and found 20 more rivers.

It was the risk taking tribesman who first killed and ate that antilope, and saved his starving people. Once stronger and fitter from eating meat, not only did this tribe conquer other tribes, but he then became the top alfa male and mated with his choice of women, and passed his genes on.

The humans who risked getting in that little bark boat and crazily crossed the ocean found new uninhabited lands and their genes passed on to millions of offspring and populated whole new continents.

The human who risked that last handfull of grain, and put it under the soil invented agriculture, but his cautious friends in the tribe next door ate their last grains instead, and starved. The tribes with agriculture prospered, and the hunter gatherers died out.


See ya's.
 
Last edited:
My comments below

OK, here's a not so concise attempt to clarify my views....which seem to need clarifying because as soon as I stand up for the values of our Anglo/English heritage (think political and legal systems, property rights, welfare, education, Christian rooted compassion and volunteer spirit), those with only two pigeon holes to slot people (either low browed red neck racist or enlightened new age high minded humanitarian), a few want to label moi as the former. Yes....I think I can take some credit here


- I accept Australia needs migration. Good...otherwise more people in Australia may have been unemployed during the GFC!

- I don't care stongly where migrants come from as long as they have thought hard about why they want to come to Australia, with its predominant anglo Christian heritage and values, and english language.....and after thinking hard about it, have determined they want the opportunity and freedom our prevailing system offers more than they want to hold to the values and system they are so motivated to flee. Maybe now...but over time it will change....but fundamentally I suspect it will take the good from multiple systems. Don't see it being a Sharia law country anytime soon though!

- I expect migrants to study, understand, and respect Australia's Anglo Christian heritage, and its role in evolving the political, legal, law enforcement, health care, and education system that has delivered us all the benefits of the democracy we enjoy today. Sure, I accept it isn't perfect, but show me anywhere else in the world that is better....and why we should change our system. Not a bad idea....but the tossers in government cut a lot of these programmes out over the years. Would be good to see to make some sort of induction into Australia mandatory. So long it is not overtly white.....if you get my dirft. ;)

- I expect migrants to have the attitude that Australian citizenship is a highly valued privilege granted to them, not a right.....and that there are thousands, if not millions, who are competing with them for the privilege to come here. Yes but not too nationalistic....a measure of contribution to a country is not about just verbal diahorrea but also about what people contribute. You might also want to make it a requirement for some of the bogans who want a White Australia policy!

- I expect migrants, especially from developing nations, to understand that Australian citizenship is a shortcut to a better lifestyle in a developed nation. The better lifestyle they have the privilege of experiencing, is something previous citizens with particular values have built. This should underscore the sense of privilege they feel in being here. Most migrants already do. Do you understand what is required to live in a muti-cultural society?

- I expect intending migrants to think carefully about their fellow countrymen, who they leave behind to continue a life compromised by developed world standards. I expect them to think about why they don't stay where they came from and organize themselves into strong groups who lift their country up to a developed standard, rather than fleeing it. If you think migrants are going to say "yes massa"...you could be in for a shock. Some of them will probably be employing you one day.....food for thought.

- I expect migrants to come here with a hell of a lot more than an economic opportunistic motivation, or an eye on our overly generous welfare benefits. Fact apart from refugees most migrants can't get access to welfare for 2 years. As previously discussed...most these days come with 500k-1m. Maybe you should take a look around you. Most migrants tend to like to better themselves.

- I expect migrants to come here with a sense of community, not a sense of insularism. And should the people here also make them feel welcome and be neighbourly also...it cuts both ways. Assimilation in a multi-cultural society requires tolerance.

- I expect migrants not to treat Australia as a remittance economy, from which they can extract capital to send back to their place of origin to fund wars, crime, and black market economies. Have oyu looked at the terrorist financing laws in this country? Don't see this happening but most send money back to relatives who are not as well off. Similar to Aussies in UK and USA???

- I expect migrants come here to start a new life of new hope, rather than cling to the prejudices, nationalism, and fighting they may be fleeing. Hmmm...what about the idiots who started the Cronulla riots or wear the Southern Cross as this symbol. Look within before throwing stones from a glass house.

- I accept that migrants accepted on humanitarian grounds and as part of family streaming, are on the whole a net economic cost to Australia for several decades after they arrive. This is born out in many official government reports. though I also accept there are exceptions, though these are not enough to counter the non exceptions. Therefore, I believe Australia should only accept as many of these category of migrants as does not adversely effect the prevailing quality of life. Those who argue otherwise should openly declare how many of the world's millions who seek a better life overseas, Australia should accept each year. Disagree....we live in a global community... wealthy countries need to do their part.

- I accept that Australia has unskilled and uneducated people who do not have their job security protected by a professional organization, like the professions do. These people are more likely to have migrants compete with them for work, education spots, and housing (in an undersupplied market). Hence, it is natural they may develop animosity towards migrants if the migration rate is not sensitive to their needs. I expect our government to weight this factor when setting our migration rate. Stiff....no such thing..everyone has to compete...otherwise we will become a third world country. If Anglo-Saxon Australians feel threatened ...they should better themselves. No such thing as a free lunch anywhere. The Asian students are getting all the professional jobs....why because they work bloody hard!

- I accept Australia's elites support high migration out of self interest.
High migration will increase asset prices due to population pressure, capitalists will benefit from downwards pressure on unskilled and skilled wages. A larger population increases market size which increase potential profits. Agree

- I accept the greatest antagonists to a high migrant intake are the unions, extreme green groups, and those from poorer socioeconomic groups. Agree...poor sods their influence in the political process is insignificant.

- I accept that migrants from differing backgrounds will not compete 'equally' in a developed world economy. Whether it is due to their command of english, age, education level, cultural or religious views, accumulated capital, or whatever, Australia can not ignore this when setting its immigration policy. True....but the second generation does much better...they become lawyer, doctors, accountants and IT professionals.

These are my views. I accept a minority with a different mindset and motives, do not share them. Actually you maybe the minority.

Winston......your comments above are reflective of someone in 1950s white Australia. So long as people like me vote....you have no hope of most of your comments above enacted in legislation. Australia has too much to lose economically if any of the above rubbish is implemented.

We already have a naturalised American women running NSW. We have a Asian women as the Environment minister...it is probably not too far off before you see Asian and Indian faces in the ministries of state and federal governments. Just look at the US Departmental secretaries....they are African American, Hispanic, Asian, Indian, etc.

So as they say....times are changing.....get on the train or you will be left behind. Change is the only constant.;)
 
We already have a naturalised American women running NSW.

i'd be checking who's payroll they were on before she came to Australia.

ex Opus Dei, implicated in the "planning murder" which, lets face it, smacks of a pro hit and no family background?
 
If you are refering to Aunty Kristina Kenneally and her planning stuff ups in Catherine Bay and the Hunter...yes.. dreadful!;)

I am no fan of her.....she is after all a puppet of Joe Tripodi and Eddy Obeid....gentlemen with a rather unsavoury reputation.:p

Probably why NSW has gone down the gurgler.....

I was drawing the parallel that she is a naturalised Australian not Australian born citizen. But hey....you have to give her credit she made it to the top from that cesspool called the labour party in NSW.;)

i'd be checking who's payroll they were on before she came to Australia.

ex Opus Dei, implicated in the "planning murder" which, lets face it, smacks of a pro hit and no family background?
 
Winston......your comments above are reflective of someone in 1950s white Australia.

were you here then Sash, or are you just talking through your thongs?

and keep in mind that it was a White Australia that migrants have been risking their lives to get into for decades


We already have a naturalised American women running NSW. We have a Asian women as the Environment minister...it is probably not too far off before you see Asian and Indian faces in the ministries of state and federal governments. Just look at the US Departmental secretaries....they are African American, Hispanic, Asian, Indian, etc.

and I am glad they are in the ministries Sash. It shows they met my expectations. If you disagree, provide evidence of where they are trying to break down Australia's constitutional law, government system, law enforcement, and education and health care systems......or at least demonstrate where they are trying to introduce the systems of other cultures into Australia.

Sash, why don't you rise to their standard in your understanding and ability to interpret the subtlety and significance of the issues I raised, as they so obviously have?

From your statements, it is obvious you read little about what drives productivity in Australia. GDP per capita has gone backwards for how long now Sash?
 
Thongs??....is that a fashion accessory that you personally use for formals??

It might have been white 40 years ago....but I it looks more honey coloured to me now...and I can't see it changing to suit you at the moment.

Maybe you should think about immigrating somewhere where they think along your lines....hold on....South Africa dismantled apartheid in the 1990s....we Winston...old boy...you might be a dinosaur after all.

Your "expectations huh"....well how is this what impact did the Greeks and Italians on the Aussie lifestyle?

Accordingly...with new cultures some of their practices will be adopted generally is the better things in a culture that is adopted as the majority will need to like it. Not just a minority!

As for GDP per capita going backward maybe by a insignificant 0.1%...but not like other countries. If you want stats have a look here:

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/[email protected]/Lookup/1383.0.55.001Main+Features132009

http://www.treasury.gov.au/documents/67/HTML/sld007.asp

So what was that about productivity again???

Well Professor...I guess it is back to the drawing board....



were you here then Sash, or are you just talking through your thongs?

and keep in mind that it was a White Australia that migrants have been risking their lives to get into for decades






and I am glad they are in the ministries Sash. It shows they met my expectations. If you disagree, provide evidence of where they are trying to break down Australia's constitutional law, government system, law enforcement, and education and health care systems......or at least demonstrate where they are trying to introduce the systems of other cultures into Australia.

Sash, why don't you rise to their standard in your understanding and ability to interpret the subtlety and significance of the issues I raised, as they so obviously have?

From your statements, it is obvious you read little about what drives productivity in Australia. GDP per capita has gone backwards for how long now Sash?
 
Last edited:
Sir Edmund Barton’s ideas on Immigrants and being an Australian in 1907.


'In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an Australian and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an Australian, and nothing but an Australian... There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an Australian, but something else also, isn't an Australian at all. We have room for but one flag, the Australian flag.... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the Australian people.'


Edmund Barton
1907

Every Australian citizen needs to read this! KEEP THIS MOVING

(For those who don’t know Edmund Barton was Australia’s first PM)
 
yes, some migrants are never going to value a nation too highly that they get for free.

You seem to feel that is the case already..

I think we're not doing much differntly now than in the past, so why would things change ?

So I expect you will continue to be dissapointed all your life as your expectations remain no closer to being met.

Enjoy :D
 
Sir Edmund Barton’s ideas on Immigrants and being an Australian in 1907.


'In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an Australian and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an Australian, and nothing but an Australian... There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an Australian, but something else also, isn't an Australian at all. We have room for but one flag, the Australian flag.... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the Australian people.'


Edmund Barton
1907

Every Australian citizen needs to read this! KEEP THIS MOVING

(For those who don’t know Edmund Barton was Australia’s first PM)


Pfft...
Outdated. Just like the "white Australia policy".

My father immigrated to Australia in the 70's (I think, if my maths isn't dodgy). He is an Australian citizen, He is also a British Citizen. Two of my siblings hold dual citizenship and now live abroad in their "other" country. But then maybe that's OK because they are all white and of anglo-saxon descent???

Personally, the Australian history is something to be learned and acknowledged and embraced as part of our culture BUT there is ALOT in our history that is NOT even partway OK, and not something to be proud of. Just because it was once upon a time perfectly acceptable to be racist, does not make it alright, and does not mean that we should hold to these standards/beliefs/attitudes nowdays.

Sir Edmund Barton came from an era where, neither women nor Aboriginals were allowed to vote, the white Australia policy was in full force, the young aboriginals were routinely taken from their parents and their homes and institutionalised. NONE of this is anything to be proud of IMHO and to suggest a return to these attitudes is completely against MY beliefs as an australian and everything I believe Australia is and should be. To return to these out of date attitudes and beliefs would make me question if I would wish to remain a part of such a culture that contradicts everything I have been raised to believe is australian.

MY GENERATION (gen Y that is) IS a multicultural generation. WE are the future. As are OUR children.

The best thing about Australia, in my opinion, is the differences. I love being able to eat dishes from diferent nationalities everyday of the week. I Learning about others cultures and beleifs and backgrounds, their history and different places of origin. I love that my neighbours are a broad mix of indian, sri lankan, asian and various other nationalities - and that most of my neighbours can speak more then one language (something I have yet to master). I love that my kids are growing up in this environment. I love the fact that myself and my kids are able to learn about different religions - about both differences and similarities - from people who actually practice their faith.

To me, it is all these things that make this Australia.

Fair enough to say immigrants need to respect our laws and and abide by them (even if they don't personally agree with them, god's know I don't always agree with them), but to suggest they should give up their culture, their language and their heritage is to cheat ourselves out of all the good things they can bring to our country and everything we can learn and adopt or adapt to make this nation even better then it is - I mean lets face it, we aren't yet perfect.
 
Sir Edmund Barton’s ideas on Immigrants and being an Australian in 1907.


'In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an Australian and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an Australian, and nothing but an Australian... There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an Australian, but something else also, isn't an Australian at all. We have room for but one flag, the Australian flag.... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the Australian people.'


Edmund Barton
1907

Every Australian citizen needs to read this! KEEP THIS MOVING

(For those who don’t know Edmund Barton was Australia’s first PM)

I'd like to think we have grown a bit in 103 years.

This reads like those awful redneck chain emails we get every week or so.

I think we all have many facets these days :)
 
It might have been white 40 years ago....but I it looks more honey coloured to me now...and I can't see it changing to suit you at the moment.

Judging by color seems important to you Sash.....
I judge values.


So what was that about productivity again???

how about reading up on when GFC started and find the qtrly data since Sash.


You seem to feel that is the case already..

I think we're not doing much differntly now than in the past, so why would things change ?

So I expect you will continue to be dissapointed all your life as your expectations remain no closer to being met.

Enjoy :D


yes, I will be disappointed if some migrants, since the days of the Anzacs and soldiers of WWII, have no respect for, or inkling of, the example they set.....the example of men and women uniting in love and respect of the freedom they enjoy in Australia, and risk life and limb defending that by standing up to despots and evil...........rather than run run run away.

Where would Australia be today if we all sought asylum in Canada when the Japanese were bombing Darwin?

It will be a shame when 'Lest we forget' is written off as the sentimental and anachronistic ramblings of an irrelevant past.

 

how about reading up on when GFC started and find the qtrly data since Sash.





yes, I will be disappointed if some migrants, since the days of the Anzacs and soldiers of WWII, have no respect for, or inkling of, the example they set.....the example of men and women uniting in love and respect of the freedom they enjoy in Australia, and risk life and limb defending that by standing up to despots and evil...........rather than run run run away.

Where would Australia be today if we all sought asylum in Canada when the Japanese were bombing Darwin?

It will be a shame when 'Lest we forget' is written off as the sentimental and anachronistic ramblings of an irrelevant past.


yeah as I said. Things seem to be continuing the decline they've supposedly always been on according to you, so I see no reason why things would change in your favour any time soon !

Enjoy your continuing dissapointment.
 
Last edited:
yes, I will be disappointed if some migrants, since the days of the Anzacs and soldiers of WWII, have no respect for, or inkling of, the example they set.....the example of men and women uniting in love and respect of the freedom they enjoy in Australia, and risk life and limb defending that by standing up to despots and evil...........rather than run run run away.

Where would Australia be today if we all sought asylum in Canada when the Japanese were bombing Darwin?

It's funny.. my first thought was - how could a Japanese immigrant be expected to respect the efforts of Aussies in WWII? But I recently came across the poem of Takijiro Onishi (below), then read a little about him.. he seemed like a very honourable and generally good bloke, and someone I could respect ;)

More importantly, learning about the value of "mateship", I think is what immigrants should learn about aussie culture ;)
 
Back
Top