Why it really is different here - Part 2: Australia vs UK

Why it really is different here - Part 1: Australia vs USA, has already been discussed in the thread below.

http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46427

The gloomers frequently state that we are 'just like the USA' or 'just like Japan'. I think those claims have been largely discredited in various threads here, including the one linked above.

What has not been covered to such a degree is Australia vs UK. Are we 'just like the UK?' Let's discuss.

First of all, consider population growth. While the Australian population is growing at 1.7% per annum, the UK growth is only 0.4% per annum, less than a quarter of our growth rate! And even though the Rudd government has indicated that overseas immigration may be cut, it is very unlikely that Australia's population growth will fall anywhere close to UK levels.

Another important factor is the quality of overseas immigrants. While Australia has quite a restrictive policy of encouraging 'skilled' migrants, the UK has been taking in a very large share of poor and uneducated migrants from Eastern European countries, who tend to send most of their money back home to family instead of spending it in the UK economy, unlike our own skilled overseas immigrants who contribute towards the Australian economy to a much greater extent (and can better afford to buy/rent houses). Many of those UK migrants just packed their bags and went home when the UK economy started to stutter.

Another critical factor is interest rates. The UK banks have generally kept a larger slice of the official rate cuts for themselves, rather than passing it on to the consumer as has happened in Australia. Furthermore, the UK only started slashing official rates AFTER their house prices were falling sharply and the UK economy was in serious trouble. The RBA on the other hand has been much more proactive, cutting rates well in advance, ensuring that the rate cuts are passed on, and since they were starting from a higher official rate position to begin with, they have plenty more ammo left in the rate cut gun as well.

The chart below compares the reduction in official rates and mortgage rates across the UK, USA and Australia. It is clear that despite our official rate having fallen by the least amount (meaning we have much more scope for further official cuts), our fixed and variable mortgage rates have fallen by the greatest amount. The key difference here is that a much greater share of the cuts get passed on to the consumer in Australia.

USvUKvAU_IRCuts.jpg


Source: 25/02/2009 Housing Australia & UK comparison (PDF 117kb)
http://www.westpac.com.au/internet/publish.nsf/Content/WIMCER+Australian+Economic+Reports

The UK's economic problems began well in advance of their housing market downturn, and the UK banks had much more significant exposures to the sub-prime assets that triggered the current crisis. Many large UK lenders are heavily reliant on securitisation markets for funding (much more so than Australian banks). When those markets closed, these lenders no longer had access to funds. The Northern Rock collapse removed a very significant UK housing finance provider (estimate 10% mortgage market share, 110-120% LVRs common). After the NR collapse, credit was severly tightened by all UK lenders, max LVRs were slashed, and finance was no longer made available to 'higher-risk' borrowers.

Then we have the government debt position to consider. Australia entered this global downturn from a much stronger position since we had a strong budget surplus, no public debt, and we also have the Future Fund and the Infrastructure Fund, which together contain around $80 billion that can be made available for further stimulus.

Additionally, the UK (and especially London) economy is very much based around the financial services sector. And we know how that sector is going. Badly. The UK economy is in a much worse position than the Australian economy.

Finally, the UK property boom was considerably larger than ours to begin with.

GlobalBooms.jpg


Source: http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/real-estate-house-prices/A

Cheers,

Shadow
 
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What has not been covered to such a degree is Australia vs UK. Are we 'just like the UK?' Let's discuss.
The simalarities are obvious and overwhelming. But you've got to work hard to find the differences. Only those heavily exposed to real estate would take the time to try.
 
The simalarities are obvious and overwhelming. But you've got to work hard to find the differences. Only those heavily exposed to real estate would take the time to try.

Hi YM, can you list all the similarities for me? I listed about 10 differences (wasn't as hard as you think - pretty easy really). How many similarities can you list? Would you care to refute any of the arguments I put forward, or have you done your best already?

Cheers,

Shadow.
 
I like your sources Shadow, and admire your dedication.
Though you can't ignore this important point coming from the same source:

http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/investment-analysis/Most-expensive-real-estate-markets-in-2009

House price movements
The recent house price boom and bust defeats the traditional notion that real estate prices are based primarily on local conditions.

The relatively low cost and ease of moving capital around the world has made it easier for people to invest in real estate markets in several countries. This is complemented by the relatively lower cost of international air transport. Several countries have also removed foreign ownership restrictions, a move encouraged by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) and the European Union.

And also from the same article:
Rental yields are generally below 5% ... ...suggesting that property is still overvalued.


This link is a nice illustration about yields (credits for the link can't be disclosed here...) : http://jonnyoblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/ll.jpg
 
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Additionally, the UK (and especially London) economy is very much based around the financial services sector. And we know how that sector is going. Badly. The UK economy is in a much worse position than the Australian economy.


Sydneys biggest industry would be financial services too wouldn't it? If not, what is? It's not like Sydney manufactures anything much for export. So why is Sydney different to London?

The UK economy is certainly much worse than Australia's, but crikey, that wouldn't be hard, eh? The Poms can't even feed themselves, they import nearly half their food for flip sake. They have bugger all commodities and don't manufacture much and their most valuable asset is the queen. 80% of the workforce employed in services. A disaster waiting to happen. If you want a decent arguement, them picking a tougher opponent than the poor old poms is only fair mate.
It's like picking a fight with a drunken cross-eyed midget.

I keep saying it, Australia's economic woes are 18 months behind the rest of the western world due to the commodity bubble. Compare things in 18 months time and see what's happening then after our trade deficite goes through the roof and unemployment is 8%.

See ya's.
 
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May i ask if its assumed that we will follow just because other countries have experienced downturns in their markets, can someone please explain to me why in 1987 - 1997, the US stock market plunged but then went on to beat its 1987 high by a factor of around 3, yet the australian stockmarket barely made it to its 1987 highs.

Of course this is an different asset class, but it just seems incredibly simplistic to assume 100% correlation when there are different characteristics and property cycles between countries.
 
it just seems incredibly simplistic to assume 100% correlation when there are different characteristics and property cycles between countries.

This looks like a reply to TC and I know neither he nor I have claimed 100% correlation, ever.

But in this era of globalisation there is no such thing as 100% immunity either.

Oz is still doing surprisingly well but the fat lady hasn't sung yet. :)
 
This looks like a reply to TC and I know neither he nor I have claimed 100% correlation, ever.

But in this era of globalisation there is no such thing as 100% immunity either.

Oz is still doing surprisingly well but the fat lady hasn't sung yet. :)

Quite agree with you on the impact of globalisation, and i dont think many moderate forum members would be suggesting 100% immunity.

But if the answer is somewhere in between we need to be careful extrapolating overseas results onto our own market.

I think the reason for such heated debate on this forum is that there is not a 100% clear and fail proof model that can be applied in the current environment.

There are opportunities:
1) current low interest rates
2) government support for residential property
3) insufficient supply relative to underlying demand.
4) rising rents
5) others

But there are also risks:
1) risk of interest rates rising
2) basic measures such as income to asset price
3) government removing support for residential property
4) banks adopting more restrictive lending practices.
5) others

Therefore in a similar nature to the share market in this environment, i think that future returns will be greatly impacted by an individuals ability to invest. (There are some periods in time where any schmuck can make an investment that performs well because of the environment rather than his own ability).
 
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I like your sources Shadow, and admire your dedication.
Though you can't ignore this important point coming from the same source

Hi Spark,

I'm not ignoring it. My post was about the differences between UK and Australia, not the similarities. Happy for others to list various similarities for further discussion also.

(Token Funder failed to understand that, as usual, judging by his comment above :rolleyes:).

I'm sure YieldMatters will soon contribute with an extensive list of similarities. (I expect his post above was just a 'teaser' before he brings out the big guns!).

Cheers,

Shadow.
 
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If you want a decent arguement, them picking a tougher opponent than the poor old poms is only fair mate. It's like picking a fight with a drunken cross-eyed midget.

Hi TC,

I'm didn't just pick the UK at random. I picked the UK because it is one of the countries (along with USA and Japan) that the gloomers often select when they say 'we're just like them'. We've already discussed the differences between USA vs Australia and Japan vs Australia. So UK is next. I guess I could have compared Australia to Venezuela or Tibet, but that would have been kind of pointless. :D

Cheers,

Shadow.
 
One thing you seem to forget to mention from the same source.....

UK has been (still now) in severe "undersupply"... more severe than Australia... (under the way supply is estimated). UK also has a longer period of under-built than Australia.

One thing ofen used as the last straw on this forum is that Australia is different because we have undersupply.. but UK's more severe undersupply didn't save them.. did it?

As I said previously, the reason for such unrealistic "fundamental" undersupply comes from the naive assumption that person per home/bedroom will stay at historical low and empty house (e.g. holiday homes) rates will stay at historical high. Any adverse change in these numbers will turn "undersupply" into oversupply in a flash.

California was under severe undersupply when person-per-house was at 1.8. It has became severe oversupply when that number jumped from 1.8 to 2.4 in two years. And the quality and number of immigrants was also their invincible arguments. Their median house price is now down close to 50%,
 
One thing you seem to forget to mention from the same source.....

UK has been (still now) in severe "undersupply"... more severe than Australia... (under the way supply is estimated). UK also has a longer period of under-built than Australia.

One thing ofen used as the last straw on this forum is that Australia is different because we have undersupply.. but UK's more severe undersupply didn't save them.. did it?

As I said previously, the reason for such unrealistic "fundamental" undersupply comes from the naive assumption that person per home/bedroom will stay at historical low and empty house (e.g. holiday homes) rates will stay at historical high. Any adverse change in these numbers will turn "undersupply" into oversupply in a flash.

California was under severe undersupply when person-per-house was at 1.8. It has became severe oversupply when that number jumped from 1.8 to 2.4 in two years. And the quality and number of immigrants was also their invincible arguments. Their median house price is now down close to 50%,

Hi sphinx,

No, I didn't forget to mention this. As I said above, my post is about why it's different here, not why it's the same. I didn't view 'under supply' as a point of difference. However, I guess one thing to consider with the 'under-supply' situation is the fact that our population is growing four times as fast.

The question is, will our persons-per-dwelling figure rise significantly due to adverse economic conditions as happened in the UK and California? Perhaps our many points of difference mean this is not inevitable, or that it may happen to a lesser degree.

Cheers,

Shadow.
 
Sydneys biggest industry would be financial services too wouldn't it? If not, what is? It's not like Sydney manufactures anything much for export. So why is Sydney different to London?

The UK economy is certainly much worse than Australia's, but crikey, that wouldn't be hard, eh? The Poms can't even feed themselves, they import nearly half their food for flip sake. They have bugger all commodities and don't manufacture much and their most valuable asset is the queen. 80% of the workforce employed in services. A disaster waiting to happen. If you want a decent arguement, them picking a tougher opponent than the poor old poms is only fair mate.
It's like picking a fight with a drunken cross-eyed midget.

I keep saying it, Australia's economic woes are 18 months behind the rest of the western world due to the commodity bubble. Compare things in 18 months time and see what's happening then after our trade deficite goes through the roof and unemployment is 8%.

See ya's.

Toppie how can you doubt the blue sky geared to the back teeth brigade.....Don't you know its different in the land of OZ:p:p

We have the best banking system in the world you know, its foundation is residential real estate and we know what a solid base that is....
 
Hi Shadow,

This topic has been discussed before.

Titled : Difference b/w Oz and UK property markets posted last month of which you provided a thoughtful response, is this thread an addition to that.

While pointing out the difference b/w to the two countries, to have a balanced discussion it would be helpful if both the similarities and differences are listed so that a fair evaluation can be done.

I would be interest to see if there is a difference between the two countries concerning house hold debt to GDP. It is this ratio to me determines if people can afford to pay off loans.

Shadow, could you please provide the source for the population growths for the two countries. As a percentage we are growing four times faster than the UK based on your figures, but if you calculated based on head count, the UK 244K p.a and Oz 374K which is not even twice the number and we have a lot greater land mass. Oh there is a difference, we have a smaller population and more land for housing.

Benjamin
 
Shad,

Your "research" is simply about starting with your conclusion and working back from there. Hence the emphasis on data that you feel supports your underlying conclusion (there wont be a major correction in resi housing prices in Oz in the medium term) whilst ignoring data from the same sources that fails to support it.

And simply saying your objective is to identify "differences" is intellectually dishonest and your usual straw man approach.

No-one is saying the UK and Oz are the same.

Brits have poorer teeth, for a start.

And like their beer warm.

The key issue is: when looking at the global recession and the clear impact it is having on RE prices in many industrialised economies, what are the underlying and common causes, are those elements evident in Australia, and what countervailing forces are there that are significant enough to compensate.

In other words, is Australia different enough, given the UK wasn't different enough, Spain wasn't different enough, Ireland wasn't different enough etc. etc.

Simply listing differences might constitute a sufficient argument in People magazine or on ACA but to pretend it rises beyond that level of analysis is gilding the lilly.

Give me all the data in the world, allow me to highlight what I prefer and ignore what I don't, and I'll "prove" any argument you care to put.
 
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While pointing out the difference b/w to the two countries, to have a balanced discussion it would be helpful if both the similarities and differences are listed so that a fair evaluation can be done.

Indeed. I was hoping someone would be able to list all the similarities. No luck so far.

I would be interest to see if there is a difference between the two countries concerning house hold debt to GDP. It is this ratio to me determines if people can afford to pay off loans.

Not sure how GDP relates to an individuals ability to pay off a loan. Wouldn't that be more dependent on the individual's salary and the prevailing interest rates?

As a percentage we are growing four times faster than the UK based on your figures, but if you calculated based on head count, the UK 244K p.a and Oz 374K which is not even twice the number

I was referring to the growth rate, not the absolute amount - i.e. the number of new additions divided by the total population.

Cheers,

Shadow.
 
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