Women Leaders in Politics - (I'm not Sexist)

[Ideo]

Mr Fabulous:



...seeing as both male and female victims of sexual assault are most commonly assaulted by people known to them statistics show us the perpetrators usually male and can be family members, extended family members, partners, through community groups, eg church, scouts, school...what pearls of wisdom do you have for these young men and women and children (victims of crime) about what they wear, or the areas they should walk?

Nah It's all the fault of women. Nothing to do with the rapists at all. They can't control themselves thanks to all that flesh on display.

It's just pathetic that the kind of neanderthal mind set still exists. Still, at least it is dieing out.

The next person who goes on about women asking for it is going to become a victim of violence themselves.

 

[pennyk]

Mr Fabulous:



...seeing as both male and female victims of sexual assault are most commonly assaulted by people known to them statistics show us the perpetrators usually male and can be family members, extended family members, partners, through community groups, eg church, scouts, school...what pearls of wisdom do you have for these young men and women and children (victims of crime) about what they wear, or the areas they should walk?

For me, its an area that I really do think about alot, as my daughter hits puberty... particularly given that she looks like a 16 year old, rather than an 11 year old.

Clearly sexual abuse/ rape etc is absolutely deplorable, and no woman asks to be raped, and rapists, whether they be known to the victim or not, are responsible for their actions. Same with sexual harrassment/

But I still think we do need to think about how we dress and the "messages" that it gives to people. For me, its related more to understanding how to relate to guys generally and have healthy relationships, rather than assault/rape.
I personally see alot of teenager girls (and there was in my day as well) who are largely oblivious to the fact that they are looking or acting in a way that might turn guys on..... I think its important that girls understand that, rather than just saying "I should be able to wear whatever I want, and men should just control themselves", which to me is what the "slu*t walk" movement is saying.
So, I think its really important to have the conversation with our teenage girls about how they dress.. I just dont quite know how to explain why I think its important without people thinking I'm saying that women are asking to be raped. there must be a middle ground in there somewhere!

 

[kathryn d]

So, I think its really important to have the conversation with our teenage girls about how they dress.. I just dont quite know how to explain why I think its important without people thinking I'm saying that women are asking to be raped. there must be a middle ground in there somewhere!

The ones here that are mothers, especially of girls, understand what you are trying to say Penny.
I agree with you, they must be taught the dangers, because they are naive.

 

[Dan_p]

Yep.
Well if we think about the last hundred years and how women present themselves, that's what happened.
100 yrs ago did the average women/girl wear makeup?
Go to the club to get sloshed?
Wear fishnets?
Get tatoos?
Smoke cigarettes?
Have piercings?
Wear FckMe Pumps?
Pushup bras?
First it was the pros, then it became normal.
Now everybody does cause everyone else does it and they feel inferior if they don't.
So much that mothers even dress their kids that way.

But the question remains:
Why do they do this? ("professionals" the most ironically)
Why has it evolved to this?
Why the need to wear 6 inch heels to work?
Can they not compete without these?
Is there a "professional" or "leadership" woman that turns up to work without these?
I seen a woman carrying bricks with makeup on.
Are they not able to do their job without them?
And all that time and expense!


Point out the women who don't.
Point out any girl under over 14 who doesn't.
Those men are honest in WYSIWYG, no trickery there.
This is a bout leadership, and true leaders are transparent and honest.
They also ask the hard questions that other shy away from.
And just more case for the reason women don't occupy certain positions en masse without quotas.
Ethics and morals is another issue. But it is women that brought the bedroom to the workplace afaik. And this thread is about workplace.

I will agree times have changed but I still think you are being just a trifle general in your views.

Perhaps you are right and I have been going to work with blinkers on and not noticing these explicit scenes happeneing right before my eyes.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

But I still think we do need to think about how we dress and the "messages" that it gives to people. For me, its related more to understanding how to relate to guys generally and have healthy relationships, rather than assault/rape.
I personally see alot of teenager girls (and there was in my day as well) who are largely oblivious to the fact that they are looking or acting in a way that might turn guys on..... I think its important that girls understand that, rather than just saying "I should be able to wear whatever I want, and men should just control themselves", which to me is what the "slu*t walk" movement is saying.
So, I think its really important to have the conversation with our teenage girls about how they dress.. I just dont quite know how to explain why I think its important without people thinking I'm saying that women are asking to be raped. there must be a middle ground in there somewhere!

Penny, I wholeheartedly agree with you. But as you can see from OO and Ideo's reactions to my post (which was backing up what you said), it is almost impossible to have this discussion without certain people of a certain ideology and their White Knight/Mangina supporters immediately attempting to shape it into a 'women should not be responsible for their choices' and 'blaming the victim' issue.

Goodness help the person (read: man) that suggests, in our society today, that girls and women should think about ways they can act to reduce the chance of attracting unwanted attention and/or being attacked.

Anyway, here is a link to a blog post by girlwriteswhat that discusses the issue of female agency. She expresses it much more eloquently than I can, so have a read if you like.

It's time to grow up, ladies.

She also has a Youtube channel and her videos are fantastic.

girlwriteswhat Youtube

I hope you like them if you watch them!

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

You see Penny, this is what I was talking about. As a man, not only do I blame the victims, I also hate women now. Adults know and understand that you can't prevent all crimes from happening. Adults also understand that encouraging women to act responsibly and think about what they are doing in order to reduce the possibility of becoming a victim of a crime is very different to blaming the victim. If explaining to girls and women that they should be taught:

- Think about the way you dress and the kind of attention it might attract.
- Don't get blind drunk when you go out, have a few drinks, but keep your wits about you. If you feel too drunk, go home.
- Go out in a group of friends and stay with the group at all times.
- If you meet a guy, either give him your number or get his and ring next week. Meet him in public places the first few times you hang out.
- Never leave a pub or club alone, always have at least one friend with you.
- Even though society has told you that you can look after yourself in any situation, you can't. If someone bigger and stronger than you wants something from you, they are going to take it no matter how you feel about it.
- Prevention is better than cure. Use common sense.
- There is a very small percentage of the population that will hurt you without the slightest trace of guilt. These people are known as sociopaths. Do whatever is necessary to 'fly under their radar'. It's not foolproof, but it's better than hanging a neon sign around your neck.

So if all that makes me a misogynist in some peoples' eyes, then I'll proudly wear that tag. Fortunately, most people like yourself regard it as simple common sense. Hopefully, one day, logic will prevail over emotive name calling.

 

[Dazz]

It sickens me that people like you are out there.

So what - go away and be sick. Care factor nil.

Why are men always the biggest SDQ's ??

Getting back to politics, I find your views strange seeing as though you voted in the last Federal election for the former comedian Austen Tayshus representing the Australian Sex Party with all of their outrageous views.....

You sir are not consistent in the least.

 

[Dazz]

Top post Mark.

 

[Ideo]

Sorry. Bit emotional as it's close to my heart. Deleted my post.

Dazz. Get knotted. I don't see how lodging a protest vote has anything to do with what happened. Basically your opinion to me is as worthless as my opinion to you.

 

[pennyk]

Anyway, here is a link to a blog post by girlwriteswhat that discusses the issue of female agency. She expresses it much more eloquently than I can, so have a read if you like.

It's time to grow up, ladies.

She also has a Youtube channel and her videos are fantastic.

girlwriteswhat Youtube

I hope you like them if you watch them!

Its a very long article!! I'll try to take a look tomorrow.....

If explaining to girls and women that they should be taught:

- Think about the way you dress and the kind of attention it might attract.
- Don't get blind drunk when you go out, have a few drinks, but keep your wits about you. If you feel too drunk, go home.
- Go out in a group of friends and stay with the group at all times.
- If you meet a guy, either give him your number or get his and ring next week. Meet him in public places the first few times you hang out.
- Never leave a pub or club alone, always have at least one friend with you.
- Even though society has told you that you can look after yourself in any situation, you can't. If someone bigger and stronger than you wants something from you, they are going to take it no matter how you feel about it.
- Prevention is better than cure. Use common sense.
- There is a very small percentage of the population that will hurt you without the slightest trace of guilt. These people are known as sociopaths. Do whatever is necessary to 'fly under their radar'. It's not foolproof, but it's better than hanging a neon sign around your neck.

So if all that makes me a misogynist in some peoples' eyes, then I'll proudly wear that tag. Fortunately, most people like yourself regard it as simple common sense. Hopefully, one day, logic will prevail over emotive name calling.

Good advice.. Do you have any similar advice do you suggest giving to our boys?

Sorry. Bit emotional as it's close to my heart. Deleted my post.

Sorry, I didnt get to see your original post that you deleted... I would be interested to hear your opinion... This really is an issue that I do want to think through carefully. As I said in my post, for me this is not an issue of sexual abuse/ rape, which is clearly wrong, and no-one deserves it, no matter how they dress etc etc..... more of how to teach our girls to be responsible and careful, so they do both reduce their risks and help them in their relationships with guys.

One thing I thought of as I was out today is just what I asked Mr Fab.. Its an issue that I also want to talk to my son about as well as my daughter (I just know less about this area, because I still dont really understand how boys think! )

But there are clearly issues that the boys need to be aware of as well, to help to ensure that boys also grow up to be responsible and to have good attitudes and behaviour towards women, both in terms of relationships/ sexual issues, as well as how to grow up without either feeling either arrogant towards women, or like a doormat...

I'm very fortunate to have had primarily positive experiences with men.. which is lucky for me, cause I have always had a disproportionate number of men in my life (I grew up with only brothers, and alot of them!!..most of my brothers children are boys, and I've worked primarily in male dominated workplaces).

But not having seen alot of bad behaviour, (until recent years since I've been working with Europeans!! ) means that I'm not always so conscious of what issues we need to raise with our son to ensure he grows up to be healthy and happy in his relationships with women.

 

[weg]

I think there's a bit of misconception here regarding who gets sexually assaulted.


Statistic vary (covered this in my studies) but children under 17 make up a pretty decent percentage of sexual assault cases. That includes those under 12.

Can't be dress, so must be behaviour .

A fair percentage of women that get assaulted are simply in the wrong place at the wrong time with someone they 'trust', and get assaulted regardless of what they wear. Date rape is one of the most common types of rape.

Behaviour again I take it .

Sexual assault is just assault... in most cases the woman could just as easily be wearing a burka.

They just have to be vulnerable, be of the preferred age and sex, and the perpetrator think they can get away with it - no need to have model looks, do pole dancing before the attack or have it all hang out.

Btw, boys and men almost always don't report it, as don't many females or children.

Still, I don't understand how dressing 'prostitute like' in the workplace puts a woman at advantage... PB ??

Maybe in a brothel .

 

[Ideo]

Yep. Sexual assault is about power moreso than sex.

But there is still a certain group that see it as somehow aggravated by how a woman dresses.

You can be sober, dressed in conservative business clothes and it still happen.

 

[our obsession]

...or a grandmother, home sleeping in her own bed, or dressed in a burka, be young, a teenager, an adult, in senior years, be male, be female, be in a school uniform, a scout's uniform.

The majority, (again), of sexual assaults are perpetrated by people familiar to the victim.

 

[pennyk]

I think there's a bit of misconception here regarding who gets sexually assaulted.

Sexual assault is just assault... in most cases the woman could just as easily be wearing a burka.

Still, I don't understand how dressing 'prostitute like' in the workplace puts a woman at advantage... PB ??

Maybe in a brothel .

Yep. Sexual assault is about power moreso than sex.

.

Absolutely agree on the sexual assualt bit... which is why I've tried to be really careful with how I've framed my discussion. I think sexual assault is almost totally about power.

Great question about "prostitute dressing" in the workplace, weg.. my feeling is it works exactly the opposite way... but I'd be interested to hear how others feel that it might put a woman at an advantage.

 

[weg]

Great question about "prostitute dressing" in the workplace, weg.. my feeling is it works exactly the opposite way... but I'd be interested to hear how others feel that it might put a woman at an advantage.

Sorry i wasn't very clear - the comment was for PB, who I assume thinks women get promotions because of their push up bras.

I think it works the opposite too, even though I don't think women in the workplace look 'prostitute like' - certainly not in my workplace or places of womens employment that i enter, hence the brothel comment.

 

[our obsession]

Talking of female political leadership, some interesting events unfolding that has seen Africa with it's second female leader.

http://www.daily-mail.co.zm/?p=1450

Yesterday, as Malawians tried to come to terms with the passing of their president, Information Minister Patricia Kaliati called a press conference to tell a nation in mourning why Mrs Banda should not ascend to the presidency. “She formed her own party, the People’s Party, after we threw her out of DPP.”

Her press conference was part of DPP’s machinations to get the late President Mutharika’s young brother, Peter, the current Foreign Affairs minister, to take over the presidency in a pale attempt at dynastic succession.


But the plot has failed. As things stand, the army threw its support behind Mrs Banda in line with the Constitution and Joyce Banda was sworn in as Malawi’s new president yesterday. She becomes southern Africa’s first female head of state and Africa’s second after Ellen Johnson Sirleaf of Liberia after taking the oath before parliament in the Malawian capital, Lilongwe.

Joyce Banda has ordered the nation’s flags to be flown at half-staff for a 10 day mourning period for her predecessor, but there are already reports of Malawians celebrating Mutharika’s death.

The 78-year-old Mutharika, a former World Bank official was elected into office in 2004 and again in 2009, but in recent years he was accused of economic mismanagement, becoming autocratic, and souring relations with important donors—especially the United States and Great Britain—who then withheld hundreds of millions of dollars of much needed aid.

-Banda, 61, is a longtime campaigner for women’s rights and better education in Malawi.

-The next scheduled elections take place in 2014.

She inherits a difficult task.

-Malawi is one of the poorest countries in the world where the majority of people live in abject poverty. It is also prone to natural disasters—the extremes of drought and flooding– and is facing critical fuel shortages and rising food prices.

-Banda will need cooperation from elected members of Mutharika’s political party, which she was expelled from after she became critical of the late president.

 

[pennyk]

Sorry i wasn't very clear - the comment was for PB, who I assume thinks women get promotions because of their push up bras.

.

I realised thats what you meant... good question. I'd be interested to hear some feedback on that.

 

[eKwatee]

Exciting news today as Bob Brown has announced he's quitting the senate & the Leadership, so he has inadvertently assisted in the further research to our discussion.

Now lets draw a line in the sand
__________________________________________________

Next female leader to step up to the plate.....
Christine Milne from the Greens. Lets see how she goes.

 

[Aaron_C]

Exciting news today as Bob Brown has announced he's quitting the senate & the Leadership, so he has inadvertently assisted in the further research to our discussion.

Now lets draw a line in the sand
__________________________________________________

Next female leader to step up to the plate.....
Christine Milne from the Greens. Lets see how she goes.

It's ok by the time 2013 comes the question of whether a male or female leads the Greens will be moot. Bring the election on!

 

[pennyk]

It's ok by the time 2013 comes the question of whether a male or female leads the Greens will be moot. Bring the election on!

However, will Christine Milne then be used as another example of female politicians being less effective than men?

There is very little that she can do to influence the outcome of the next election for the Greens. Lib and Lab will both preference Greens lower, so they are almost certain to have less representation, no matter what their policies are, or her performance.

Maybe this is a flaw that women politicians have... they are willing to take over leadership positions at a time when the outcome is a lost cause, while the men stand back and wait til the inevitable defeat comes and then ride in on their big white horse as the "saviour"...