Australia's Iceberg

IMHO there's nothing we can do about the iceberg I think, just bump into one after another to see how we come out. However, there's no point speculating which asset will be affected most, stay true to what each of us believes in and continue on that course would be the best option for individuals :)
 
Just make sure you're in a maneuverable boat, with lots of food and water on board. There will be some who benefit from a downturn / recession.
Alex
 
One factor he didn't mention was that the last of the baby boomers are rapidly approaching 47 yrs old - should happen in about 2008/2009. This is historically the biggest spending year (at some point you stop needning new fridges, TVs, furniture, dream homes, etc). The consumer driven world will soon lose an engine.
 
There are always positives and negatives in the economy. This article seemed to only point out the negatives. The same article could have been written a decade ago, and look what happened.

Fact is, demand continues to run well ahead of supply. At the end of the day, people need a place to live.
 
One factor he didn't mention was that the last of the baby boomers are rapidly approaching 47 yrs old - should happen in about 2008/2009.

Don't forget Gen Y is actually larger in numbers, they will still be buying, provided they have a job or can get cash from the boomer bank.
 
Sums up exactly what I've been thinking. The effect on property prices? Down - in a big way I expect.

Gee whizzy....I hope not.

We've just bought, so in debt terms we've gone from hip height clear waters where nippers live, to wading out into murkier waters up to our nostrils - where great big snappies circle.

Come and join me YM....:D
 
I like the bit about the coalition bouncing back into power saying "I told you so". I agree and extend that prediction - I think it will be Costello bouncing back into power saying "I told you so" - he is strategically sitting on the back bench waiting for the world chaos to occur.

Very unfair really to Rudd and team - but that is the way it goes in politics.
 
Just make sure you're in a maneuverable boat, with lots of food and water on board. There will be some who benefit from a downturn / recession.
Alex

Boats, did someone mention boats..........................

Oh, were only dragging up this old discussion again.:rolleyes:

Oh well, carry on.

I'll probably only watch this time though.

Dave
 
http://business.theage.com.au/we-need-to-change-course-quickly-as-the-icebergs-loom/20071218-1hv3.html?skin=text-only

Good article above. Sums up exactly what I've been thinking. The effect on property prices? Down - in a big way I expect.
********************
Dear YM,

1. The historical performance for the Australian Economy and its various housing markets in Australia, may have in fact, jointly proven your thinking to be "wrong", so far.

2. Despite running on one-supercharged engine as suggested by Dr Peter Brian, Australia has been able to continually enjoyed the prolonged economic prosperity and rising household incomes as well as rising housing price over the last 16 years.

3. Thus, we will need to seriously consider and truly understand what exactly has caused Australia to remain prosperous for such a long time under the John Howard's Liberal Federal Govt's office term, in the first place.... the so-called magic "key" to Australia's continued economic prosperity... or was it simply only the "luck" factor for Australia, over these last 16 years?

4. Dr Peter Brian's article provides no answer regarding this magic "key" for Australia's continued economic prosperity.

5. Beside identifying some areas of weaknesses in the present Australian Economy, Dr Peter has recommended that A$billions dollars be spent on transport infrastructure to re-connect the various Australian cities or risks allowing Australian Economy to fall into a severe Recession.

6. Thus, if you sincerely believe in Dr Peter Brian's proposed action plan to be taken by Kevin Rudd and his ALP Federal Govt, as the correct way to to maintain Australia's continued economic prosperity, then the property prices needs not neccessarily fall down in the big way, in the near future, as what you have suggested in your post.

7. TIME will tell in due course.

Cheers,
Kenneth KOH
 
Last edited:
I like the bit about the coalition bouncing back into power saying "I told you so". I agree and extend that prediction - I think it will be Costello bouncing back into power saying "I told you so" - he is strategically sitting on the back bench waiting for the world chaos to occur.

Very unfair really to Rudd and team - but that is the way it goes in politics.
*********************
Dear YM,

1. If Kevin Rudd and his ALP Team has truly failed to see this coming during the last Election campaigning period, they have themselves to blame for lacking in their foresight skills, for asking the Australian peoples to vote them into office to lead and govern Australia into 2012.

2. I would expect them to be able to see through this and to have possessed all the technical competencies skills to govern Australia prosperously first before they offer themselves as its alternative government for Australia.

3. When Peter Costello last warned Australians about the impending economic tsunami, many Australians "disbelieved" him and wrote off his warning as trying to conduct a "political scarce campaign". Consequently, they have chosen to vote him out from the Federal Treasurer office.

4. Personally, I doubt Peter Costello would enjoy seeing Australia falling into a Recession, if he can help it.

Cheers,
Kenneth KOH
 
Last edited:
There are always positives and negatives in the economy. This article seemed to only point out the negatives. The same article could have been written a decade ago, and look what happened.

Fact is, demand continues to run well ahead of supply. At the end of the day, people need a place to live.
**********************
Dear Tubs,

I like your positive optimism and your simplified basic economic analysis.



Cheers,
Kenneth KOH
 
Good article above. Sums up exactly what I've been thinking. The effect on property prices? Down - in a big way I expect.

Articles like this is the reason why most people never actually invest - bad stuff might happen. It's easy to find the negatives or hypothesise that we're all headed for ruin.

The smart investors (like those with tubs' attitude) will take advantage of whatever circumstances arise.

Many here at SS have made lots of $$ by ignoring these shallow articles that are guaranteed to be lapped up by those needing an excuse as to why they haven't pulled their finger out & started investing.
 
********************
1. The historical performance for the Australian Economy and its various housing markets in Australia, may have in fact, jointly proven your thinking to be "wrong", so far.
I've only clicked to this enormous debt issue since 2005 so 2 1/2 years is not a long period of time to conclude I am wrong. If we get to 2010 and nothing has changed then I will begin to admit I got it wrong. I am confident the economy is heading for problems. Debt to GDP ratio now exceeds 161%. It was 145% a calendar year ago.

********************
2. Despite running on one-supercharged engine as suggested by Dr Peter Brian, Australia has been able to continually enjoyed the prolonged economic prosperity and rising household incomes as well as rising housing price over the last 16 years.
I would disagree that rising house prices and rising prosperity is the the same thing. Rising prosperity means we are wealthier. Rising house prices means wealth has either been transferred from the future (i.e. debt) or it has been transferred from some poor first home buyer trying to get a foothold. The net result for the country over the long term is even.

But nevertheless I take your point the economy has grown well over the last 16 years. Are we set up well to repeat this? I don't think so.

********************
3. Thus, we will need to seriously consider and truly understand what exactly has caused Australia to remain prosperous for such a long time under the John Howard's Liberal Federal Govt's office term, in the first place.... the so-called magic "key" to Australia's continued economic prosperity... or was it simply only the "luck" factor for Australia, over these last 16 years?
I think partly luck, partly the reforms of the previous labor government, and partly the reforms of the coalitions first few terms in office. But mostly luck.

********************
4. Dr Peter Brian's article provides no answer regarding this magic "key" for Australia's continued economic prosperity.
True. I think the government needs to invest in infrustructure and education myself to keep it going. However, there is a common misapprehension that the government "runs" the economy. In actual fact, they set policy that has a large lag time before it has an effect and the rest is mostly luck (good or bad). If the world economy turns bad then people will associate it with the current government regardless of how good their policy is. If the world economy is good they will associate that with the current government as well regardless of their policy performance.

********************
5. Beside identifying some areas of weaknesses in the present Australian Economy, Dr Peter has recommended that A$billions dollars be spent on transport infrastructure to re-connect the various Australian cities or risks allowing Australian Economy to fall into a severe Recession.
Yes - agree. But how to do that now without pushing inflation?

********************
6. Thus, if you sincerely believe in Dr Peter Brian's proposed action plan to be taken by Kevin Rudd and his ALP Federal Govt, as the correct way to to maintain Australia's continued economic prosperity, then the property prices needs not neccessarily fall down in the big way, in the near future, as what you have suggested in your post.
My theory is fairly simple. Property prices are set on the demand side - people have a steady job, good income, borrow a lot, and then pay a lot for housing. If they have unsteady work, bad income, no access to debt then they will pay only a little for housing. So good economic conditions are vital to maintain house prices at their current record prices.

********************
7. TIME will tell in due course.
I agree. I will enjoy posting here in the future. 2008 will be an interesting year.
 
**********************
Dear Tubs,

I like your positive optimism and your simplified basic economic analysis.



Cheers,
Kenneth KOH

Thank you. I think it is more relevant than micro-analysing government spending, rising and falling currencies, stock markets, comments by retired bank governors, infrastructure spending, worries in Japan and China about their over-inflated stock markets etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. I kinda think it is indeed a very basic equation, which aint changing.
 
and when supply catches up? what happens then?

That's the weird thing about this current cycle. Usually, at the top of the cycle, builders go crazy building stuff, and the (in my view) inevitable bust means there is an oversupply. This is what we're seeing in many parts of the US: overbuilding and a sudden drying up of credit means many houses are sitting empty (the definition of oversupply).

What about Australia? Vacancies are very low. I have not heard of any forumites having much problems renting their places out, and usually lease renewals involve rental increases. Yet interest rates are going up, and it's possible we might have a recession in the US (which will impact us). If we're at or near the top of the cycle, we should be seeing oversupply by now. But we're not.

How can we explain this? The only reason I can come up with is that the last (current?) boom did NOT involve overbuilding. This couldn't have been because builders left profits on the table. More likely, there was less redevelopment allowed by councils, increased costs of developing greenfield sites, lack of new transport built (thus decreasing the attractiveness of developable land: if you build a trainline into an empty area, you bet the builders would be following you).

Sydney did have oversupply for a couple of years, but after the market peaked around 2003, the oversupply was eaten up by rental demand.

In this market, I'm predicting falling prices and rising rents. The rise in rents will be exacerbated by the fact that prices are falling: less investor demand (their objective being, as we know, capital gains) means even fewer IPs out there. A recession may decrease demand as people, for example, share properties or move back in with the parents, but that's where property selection becomes significant. e.g. I avoid big buildings catering to yuppies.

In short, YM, supply is unlikely to catch up with demand. Why? You need a boom to create supply, much less oversupply. If we have a period of stagnating prices, which will probably result from a liquidity squeeze as we're seeing being played out overseas, supply WON'T catch up.

Result: falling prices, rising rents. That can't happen forever either, so what then? You get to a point where rents are high enough to entice investors back into the market, and renters decide to buy instead. That increases the supply of IPs AND decreases demand for IPs. Note the flip side: decrease in rental demand, assuming the population is equal, increases BUYING demand. So you have an increase in prices.

Putting it even more simply: you have a bust, a number of years when the market is stagnant or falling but rents are rising (which rents are willing to pay because prices aren't going up so they have no incentive to buy) until it tips over the other way. People start buying again, and the weight of the pent-up demand during the down years creates another boom.

The bust is coming, but it will sow the seeds of the next boom.
Alex
 
With regards to the demand and supply balance, the one factor that goes unnoticed, is the immigration numbers that come to Australia. 2006/7 and similarly again this financial year, we are expected to take over 150,000 arrivals. A number that has been rising even over the past few years, depite this being an extraordinarily high number historically. Of these immigrants, a majority of those are coming under the skilled migration category.

Housing construction today continues to be low, this year falling in a number od States (VIC, NSW particularly).

Interestingly if you go back to 2004, 2005 there are a number of articles citing the dramatic fall in housing starts which purport the deflating of the previous property boom. Housing starts are still low today.

If the 'iceberg' does hit, people still need to live somehwere, whether renting or owning. If you can afford to hold your property during those times, then you are perfectly positioned to take advantage of the next boom.

As an aside, (and maybe this is a personal preference), but I have been hearing for many years from the chicken littles' of the investing world, that the sky is going to fall in, and whilst it might in theory, I generally think it is to generate publicity for those so-called experts as much as a general contribution to economic debate.
 
*********************

4. Personally, I doubt Peter Costello would enjoy seeing Australia falling into a Recession, if he can help it.

Cheers,
Kenneth KOH

He won't really care too much.
Like all pollies they are totally oblivious and insulated from the normal life.
 
Bit of a throw away line there Marc....having known several pollies personally, that may be true of some, but certainly the majority should not be painted in such a negative manner.:confused:

The pollies I know have a great handle on "normal life" and are fighting very hard for the "normal" people.

I have met one polly in particular though......just there for the money/lurks/benefits and is very ineffective....makes me wonder just how he gets the votes....???:rolleyes:

Back to the subject of this thread.........The doomsayers are at it again by the looks of the latest threads here.....lots of noise.....I'll just put my mp3 player back on for awhile....;)
 
Back
Top