Doctors and their Income

[china]

I'd disagree. Please add in 6 years of income for the fast-food employee and deduct 6 years of expenditure (plus ongoing qualification fees) for the medical doctor.



Just as you assume that medical doctors WILL become specialists, please consider that those who start off as fast-food employees will also learn on the job. Many of them will move on to become managers in the food-services industry.



Perhaps change the statement to 'unless you can afford the education for a medical degree'...

Few if any fast food service manager can earn 30k in an afternoon whereas many procedural specialists can. You don't need to work that many afternoons to pay off the HECS.

The costs and trials/tribulations of getting to become a specialist is well worth the effort, financially. Just like climbing a mountain - once you get to the top, the view makes it all worthwhile and you forget the pain of the climb.

 

[china]

===

Edit:





... so, contrary to your consistent belief, being a medical doctor is not a 'just add water and mix' instant recipe for moolah and a spot in the top 1% of whatever it is you aspire to be?

Of course not, there is no such thing. Just something to consider.

 

[geoffw]

I don't know about Jim Rohn but the Australian bureau of statistics and the OECD define net wealth in pure dollar amounts.

Trying to get into business class section of aeroplane without money is impossible.

From what you have said previously, my income is perhaps 25% of yours, or less. I am married and have put two children through private school.

But my wealth position is about equivalent to yours, in not that much longer time frame.

That's why I emphasise wealth building over income.

Income is only one tool. It is not the only tool.

 

[pinkboy]

That's why I emphasise wealth building over income.

Income is only one tool. It is not the only tool.

Wise, very wise!

pinkboy.....kudos!

 

[Ideo]

Few if any fast food service manager can earn 30k in an afternoon whereas many procedural specialists can. You don't need to work that many afternoons to pay off the HECS.

The costs and trials/tribulations of getting to become a specialist is well worth the effort, financially. Just like climbing a mountain - once you get to the top, the view makes it all worthwhile and you forget the pain of the climb.

They make get paid 30k but they will not take home anywhere near that.

You are like a 14 year old kid. You do not understand the concept of costs associated with a business. Insurances, wages of other staff. Instead you are fixated with some over the top estimate of income based on absolutely no evidence.

 

[china]

From what you have said previously, my income is perhaps 25% of yours, or less. I am married and have put two children through private school.

But my wealth position is about equivalent to yours, in not that much longer time frame.

That's why I emphasise wealth building over income.

Income is only one tool. It is not the only tool.

We have agreed that the two main tools of wealth building are:

1. Decrease expenses (frugal living, saving etc.)
2. Increase income (investment/earning more etc.)

If your expenses have been higher - wife/private schools and your income is just quarter of mine, then it must mean that your investment performance must have been super phenomenal to achieve the same level of wealth in the same time period. Investors who get to two mil plus net wealth by age 37 are something special. I think that to achieve this level of investment success is far harder than to work in higher paying jobs, save and live frugally. I guess the investment bit is what I am here to pick up.

 

[china]

They make get paid 30k but they will not take home anywhere near that.

You are like a 14 year old kid. You do not understand the concept of costs associated with a business. Insurances, wages of other staff. Instead you are fixated with some over the top estimate of income based on absolutely no evidence.

The take home from the 30k for the afternoon comes to about 13k after tax and all expenses. Costs are pretty much fixed for the cataract surgeon - anything between 200 to 500k per year depending on the size of the practice. The biggest expense is the taxman and this expense is related to how much you gross subtracting the expenses.

 

[Aaron_C]

china - you underestimate the amount of post-op care that is required. Doing 50 cataracts in a day means you have 25 patients to follow up on over the next 3-6 months. You cannot charge the same amount for those follow up consultations, but you still need the time to see the patient which you could otherwise spend on removing other patients' cataracts. It isn't how it works. If you neglected the post-op care to do more operations you wouldn't be in business much longer. Entrepreneurship and being a medical doctor do not mix. The last doctor (who was a gynaecologist) who tried it was Ian McGoldrick and we all know what happened to him.

 

[Rolf Latham]

Trying to get into business class section of aeroplane without money is impossible.

not quite impossible. There are a number of ways u ca do that without paying cash, but you knew that already.

One can cut it anyway one wants to, if ones sole focus is only or primarily money as a measure of wealth, then that will be a miserable and insignificant existence.

Humans werent built that way.

ta
rolf

 

[geoffw]

One can cut it anyway one wants to, if ones sole focus is only or primarily money as a measure of wealth, then that will be a miserable and insignificant existence.

Humans werent built that way.

Absolutely.

We've talked about money, but I'm also wealthy in other ways.

I've been married to a beautiful lady for many years. We will celebrate our 25th anniversary in three weeks time.

I've got two beautiful daughters, grown up and starting to make their way in the world. They have been given the opportunity for tertiary study, but for now have chosen not to. I've always emphasised to them that it's completely up to them which way they want to go. They are both overseas, travelling, working and enjoying.

The youngest one (19) told me a few weeks ago that she's very thankful for the way she's been brought up. She's had to work for her own money, and has a work ethic which she does not see in many her own age. Ms 22 has said similar in the past.

I'm very rich.

And my girls are becoming wealthy in experience, working in other languages, cultures and backgrounds.

 

[Rolf Latham]

I don't know about Jim Rohn

"Days are expensive. When you spend a day you have one less day to spend. So make sure you spend each one wisely." -- Jim Rohn

From the late JR's FB feed today

How appropriate

ta

rolf

 

[DaveM]

And my girls are becoming wealthy in experience, working in other languages, cultures and backgrounds.

Geoff unless they do a medical degree and become a specialist earning 7 figures earning in the top 1% both they and you are failures. Surely you can understand that!

Who cares about your hocus pocus touchy feely wealthy from family story, words wont buy you a 750k PPOR for cash unless you are JK Rowling, and even she should have done a medical degree as well and worked overtime as a registrar rather than write some silly wizard books. ITS THE ONLY WAY TO GET WEALTHY!

 

[locko24]

Thank you for validating my posts. As you can see from your link, the starting base rate for a 23 year old intern is 63k. This is for a 38 hour week. Most interns will do an additional 20 hours of over time per week, bringing the usual pay to six figures per annum. You can also see pay increases very year without fail. Most don't reach the top pay scale as they have left for private practice where seven figures are not uncommon.

Big whoop. I earn 6 figures driving a truck. Hell of a lot more than 38 hrs per week though.

 

[Ideo]

Absolutely.

We've talked about money, but I'm also wealthy in other ways.

I've been married to a beautiful lady for many years. We will celebrate our 25th anniversary in three weeks time.

I've got two beautiful daughters, grown up and starting to make their way in the world. They have been given the opportunity for tertiary study, but for now have chosen not to. I've always emphasised to them that it's completely up to them which way they want to go. They are both overseas, travelling, working and enjoying.

The youngest one (19) told me a few weeks ago that she's very thankful for the way she's been brought up. She's had to work for her own money, and has a work ethic which she does not see in many her own age. Ms 22 has said similar in the past.

I'm very rich.

And my girls are becoming wealthy in experience, working in other languages, cultures and backgrounds.

Kudos.

Excellent post. Agree 100%

 

[Mazda]

DaveMSydney... about that 7 figures pay, the endless supply of cataract patients for operations and being in the top 1% of whatever, this is what China has to say about it:

In all the brouhaha, I have only ever sought to make one point. Please consider a medical degree if searching for financial security and the highest likelihood of consistently being in the top 1% of income earners.

Agreed, that is why the top 1% of income earners are often not in the top 1% of net wealth holders in any country.

...

Steve Jobs and Bill Gates should have also gotten medical degrees, by the looks of things.

 

[pinkboy]

Big whoop. I earn 6 figures driving a truck. Hell of a lot more than 38 hrs per week though.

Well if we are d!ck swinging here, I earn 6 figures sitting at my desk for 30hrs a week posting crap on SS and FB!

pinkboy

 

[xactly]

I am an Australian Doctor for over 15 years, 6 of them as a specialist,
I have two specialty degrees. I have worked in public and private.
I work in a major tertiary hospital.

The years of >24 hour on call shifts are gone. Safe practice and fatigue have outlawed them. Rostered on call is being squeezed.
The Doc you see at midnight in a hospital is a rostered shift worker.
most Government health departments are broke and demanding increased accountability.
the overtime income stream (never as lucrative as claimed and the base rate has been previously posted) is being choked. and will disappear.

the 20 medical schools that pump out junior medical practitioners with no clincial experience just stars (or dollar signs according to China) in thier eyes have overwhelmed the training postitions. the number of interns are becoming surplus to market needs and therefore useless without training.
Unemployed interns are the norm in europe. Australia has never seen unemployed junior doctors but its coming.
Google the "tsunami of medical students" and AMA statements. The government is not guaranteeing next years Australian trained but foriegn national latest crop of uni graduates.
In 2015 it wont be able to place australian born graduates.

The unis will not stop training surplus to requirements because they dont care once the government subsidies have been paid to them. market forces will rule.
medicine is an apprenticship as well as a tertiary qualification job...there arent enough seniors to train the juniors.

There ARE specialties which give 7 figures. Very very few will make it. Urban GPs already eat each other for custom.

be a Doc if you love it. (its the best job in the world)
The changing market forces of australian medicine mean its very competitive, higher training is not guarranteed any more. the specialist postions are becoming saturated (like in the UK).

If you want a high income stream. be a driver in the mines. more money for less effort and training. less future uncertainty.
having said that, I would not change careers. Its DEEPLY satisfying.
its not a guarrantee of income anymore let alone high income.
nothing is a guarrantee of wealth except thrift and delayed gratification.

Cheers
Xactly

 

[OKFFW]

^^^

Nuff said - /end thread

 

[china]

.

The years of >24 hour on call shifts are gone. Safe practice and fatigue have outlawed them. Rostered on call is being squeezed.
The Doc you see at midnight in a hospital is a rostered shift worker.
most Government health departments are broke and demanding increased accountability.
the overtime income stream (never as lucrative as claimed and the base rate has been previously posted) is being choked. and will disappear.

the 20 medical schools that pump out junior medical practitioners with no clincial experience just stars (or dollar signs according to China) in thier eyes have overwhelmed the training postitions. the number of interns are becoming surplus to market needs and therefore useless without training.
Unemployed interns are the norm in europe. Australia has never seen unemployed junior doctors but its coming.
Google the "tsunami of medical students" and AMA statements. The government is not guaranteeing next years Australian trained but foriegn national latest crop of uni graduates.
In 2015 it wont be able to place australian born graduates.

The unis will not stop training surplus to requirements because they dont care once the government subsidies have been paid to them. market forces will rule.
medicine is an apprenticship as well as a tertiary qualification job...there arent enough seniors to train the juniors.

There ARE specialties which give 7 figures. Very very few will make it. Urban GPs already eat each other for custom.

If you want a high income stream. be a driver in the mines. more money for less effort and training. less future uncertainty.

its not a guarrantee of income anymore let alone high income.
nothing is a guarrantee of wealth except thrift and delayed gratification.

I agree with what you have said. There is a lot of future uncertainty in terms of competition within the medical profession. There is a lot of medical graduates being pumped out. Far too many doctors produced. Supply and demand out of wack.

The gold lode has never been working for the government. For most doctors working a mix of private and public sector, the private sector (consulting and operating fees) provides 80-90% of income and the public sector the remainder. Working in the public sector as a specialist has never been for money but mainly for altruistic reasons.

As far as the near foreseeable future, the specialities that yield 7 figures will continue to do so. As with any pyramidal / hierachical structure, those at the top will do everything to protect their patch and incomes. When you say that there are not enough seniors to train the newbies, this is one form of protectionism.

The glory days were certainly before the introduction of medicare in 1983 when all practitioners including GPs had a licence to print money. This is not the case any more but for many current graduates/medical students/practitioners, it is still quite good compared to many other jobs. This is especially the case in the ROAD specialities that I have previously alluded to. This should not change in the next ten years as these specialities still have quite restricted entry policies.

 

[geoffw]

I guess the investment bit is what I am here to pick up.

I'm not sure how much you want to pick up. You seem intent on telling everybody what they should have been doing.

I see you like a glass that's almost full of water. People have some excellent wine they want to give you. But unless you empty the glad of water, the bit of wine you get will taste like crap.