Tall poppy syndrome on somersoft or am I just paranoid?

[GoAnna!]

Interesting point WW. Are we too easy to judge how people made their money?

So if you made in in the past 10 years you have no idea how to do it tough?

If you made it over 30 years you can't be that good at it / too conservative?

Times have changed and what was achieved can't be replicated now.

Do we have to achieve our success in a perfect way to have credability? What would that look like?

We would need to be young, average income, with young children, and made money through good times and bad. LVR's not too high, nice buffer for the bad times, a unique approach?

 

[WinstonWolfe]

Interesting point WW. Are we too easy to judge how people made their money?

So Anna, are you saying someone who doubled his money on the stock market once over 2 weeks, has more credibility than someone who doubled it every year over 5 years?

Some discriminate and judge on the size of someone's net worth.
I disciminate based on the knowledge and replicability of an investor's views. Why? Because how they made their money in a climate unlikely to be repeated anytime soon has no meaning to me, and if that investor doesn't understand that, then they confirm my views about them.

We all know successful property investors and developers who think they have it all sorted, who then go off and blow it on the stock market.

Think about how successful you'd have been with shares if you took Eddie Groves advice on same.

I am old enough to know success in one area of life at one point in time doesn't automatically give you an edge in all areas of life for all time. In fact, from what I have seen, those who have success in one area seem to make bad learners on other areas, because they think they already know everything.

 

[GoAnna!]

So Anna, are you saying someone who doubled his money on the stock market once over 2 weeks, has more credibility than someone who doubled it every year over 5 years?

Some discriminate and judge on the size of someone's net worth.
I disciminate based on the knowledge and replicability of an investor's views. Why? Because how they made their money in a climate unlikely to be repeated anytime soon has no meaning to me, and if that investor doesn't understand that, then they confirm my views about them.

We all know successful property investors and developers who think they have it all sorted, who then go off and blow it on the stock market.

Think about how successful you'd have been with shares if you took Eddie Groves advice on same.

I am old enough to know success in one area of life at one point in time doesn't automatically give you an edge in all areas of life for all time. In fact, from what I have seen, those who have success in one area seem to make bad learners on other areas, because they think they already know everything.

I guess I don't look at people's successes in that way at all. If they are successful good on them! I am not here to judge how they got there, how quickly or slowly they got there. I don't see how the success is any less if it can't be replicated right now. They saw an opportunity and they seized it. Most people don't.

I love to pick up gems from other people's experiences. I like to hear how they think. How they problem solve. How they overcome obstacles. How they read the current market. I also learn so much from other people's questions. Their failures. Their fears. I absorb it all and then I form my own opinion. My own plan. There is no one person I trust to tell me which step I should take next. The only person qualified to do that is myself.

Success does not need to be qualified or justified. It just is.

 

[HiEquity]

As newcomers to SS who have done a bit of IP investing to date on our lonesome I gotta say we get the most out of the posts that do mention the numbers, particularly for individual deals. Not so fussed about total net worth numbers but still very glad for those who do share mainly as a source of both inspiration and motivation.

We come from a background where everyone who knows about our properties thinks we have gone way too far way too fast. However compared to most of those around SS we would be quite conservative so it's good to get the grounding in both directions. We know we could have done much better in recent years if we had been a bit more active and got off our butts but we had no-one to compare against. There was always that nagging feeling that we should be doing more but it's difficult to act on if you are just surrounded by people who you think are behind you in investing terms.

Also, it has been easy to think we have done well on our deals but the details on SS of other deals that put ours to shame are an excellent wake up call that we need to put more effort into our research and DD to really extract the value. So in terms of motivation to increase both the quantity and quality of IPs in our little portfolio, I would like to say thank you to those who do share - it really is appreciated by this little black duck!

Still not sure whether we could do the same though... have to have a bit more of a think about that one. Mainly because it doesn't go down well in person with most people although I know I really appreciate it when people share... Confused??? Is it really worth exposing yourself to the naysayers here just so you can help those genuinely starting out? I would like to think so...

 

[grossreal]

hi all
interesting post.

WinstonWolfe you have hit the nail on the head not only with regards to networth
but also one of the reasons you will not see a interview with me.
yes its fine to give out information but a couple of the people that invest with me
one in particular designed google in the states and the information you can get is mind boggling.
so I will never post anything with regards to my comapanies or there values and anything I do post but is generic.
some time ago I did have a run in with a few people here for the same thing.
I don't like net values or positions to be on boards.
if you wish to post yours thats fine by me but post mine no thanks.
remember this is a open board and anything on it is open.
and as I told a couple of other just this week not here but on another board
its the same as sticking a big sheet of paper on the front window of your house.
if you don't want everyone to see then don't write the note.
we think because this is a board and no one will be interested
well wrong again.
with search engines like search 68.com you can search 68 different search engines on the same topic
and that was 5 years ago not sure what they are upto now
I use my guy and he gets me all the info I need on any subject and takes him about 15 secs to do it.
for me boards are for information.
and thats not my information
they are for learning
not learning about my current position.
education on a subject.
not subjecting my structure to a search light.
but that me
a few people have asked why does gross not do an interview well the answer is very simple.
no
I will post here and do but I give general info and thats it.
its not a tall poppy for me its a need to know basis.
and I don't think a board has a need to know.
I think that you need to be happy in your plan and that is something that doesn't need to be in that front room window.
but that my .002 worth
haven't used that for a while

 

[asdf]

What are numbers but something we pluck out of thin air that makes us feel good about what we do as IP addicts anyway? I would guess in this buyers market, a forced liquidation would surprisingly reduce your net worth considerably. Then add agents selling costs, deferred loan establishment fees and CGTs, negative holding costs all these years and you begin to wonder if sacrifices have all been worth it. And if you've tapped your equity and increased your loans as has been aggressively pushed by all the wealth advisers through the liquidity boom, then you might actually find yourself suddently bankrupt.

Would hate to be the bunny to have to force an asset fire sale and see years worth of hard work go down the gurgler.

 

[WinstonWolfe]

Actually, another point about tall poppies....it's human nature to hear about a person's wins, rarely their losses.

Though I admit some Somersofters have been very generous talking about their difficulties.

 

[MissMuffitt]

If someone wanted to data mine you, they could pull a lot of private info out of the forum once they connected a nickname with your real name.

I just googled my nick....I have left a trail all over the internet... and some of it I can't delete!

That will teach me to be more observant about my info...

 

[Lyne]

I love to pick up gems from other people's experiences. I like to hear how they think. How they problem solve. How they overcome obstacles. How they read the current market. I also learn so much from other people's questions. Their failures. Their fears. I absorb it all and then I form my own opinion. My own plan. There is no one person I trust to tell me which step I should take next. The only person qualified to do that is myself.

I’ve been reading this forum almost daily for two years now and what you describe is exactly why and what I come here to read.

Your posts reflect what you want to read and that is why you have my “respect”. Some people (one comes to mind) will throw in their anticipated profit etc in almost every other post they put up whatever the question/subject is. Some even have their net worth etc in their signature! I scroll down and don’t even read these posts because they are not the people who inspire me.

You inspire me.

Specific deals and how they come about are different and I find them very interesting and informative. I’m talking about the constant bragging.

I been very lazy and haven’t posted allot but I thought I would take this opportunity to thank you and all the others in here who are sharing their experience (good, bad, ugly, happy or sad) in the way you do.

There is something for everyone is here but not everything for everyone. No right no wrong. You do what you feel comfortable with and that's it.

Cheers

 

[skater]

I just googled my nick....I have left a trail all over the internet... and some of it I can't delete!

That will teach me to be more observant about my info...

I think you will find it is because your username is quite unusual. I did the same with mine & couldn't find a thing. I'm sure there is a lot out there, it is just harder to find because mine is more generic. Lots of news articles etc, about "skater" in some form or another.

 

[Perp]

Interesting topic, GoAnna!, thanks for raising it.

I think that an individual's overall net worth is something that they would be very wise to keep to themselves, but I do think that for particular projects the dollars are very helpful in gaining a feel for the project. And many of us "turn over" projects, or have multiple projects, anyway, and values change, so it's not necessarily too revealing of the individual's circumstances to reveal the dollars of a particular project.

A 50% gain in one year may sound terrific, but if that was turning $80K into $120K in a tiny town that's had an influx of miners or something, that's quite a different project than if somebody had bought something in a capital city that went from $1M to $1.5M. I'd still heartily congratulate a beginner who was delighted with achieving the first result - good for them - but if I knew the dollars involved, I may not necessarily want to attempt the same kind of project.

Sometimes, profits which are possible at small scale are simply not possible (sorry, "much less likely") on a larger scale. In the mining town, you may even turn $20K into $100K in a boom year. But having a replicable system for turning $2M into $10M would be a lot more interesting. Conversely, if someone can turn $2M into $10M, but I would have to have $2M in cash up-front and I couldn't access that, then it's less interesting to me than the smaller project.

I also like to get a feel for what the various elements of a project cost, and some of those costs are proportional to the size of the project (stamp duty, interest, etc), but some are relatively fixed (labour cost per hour, many professional fees, your personal effort, etc). And for those in the latter category, it's very helpful to get a feel for how much these items cost (or the range of costs), and what kind of dollar return per unit of effort other investors consider reasonable.

Also, I imagine most people do what I do anyway - if somebody puts 10%, I'm instantly thinking "OK, $400K to $440K" or something like that, seeking clues in the description to try and convert it to the right order-of-magnitude dollars. (Or perhaps others don't do this... I wonder. ) Not to be nosey, but because I think in dollars, not percentages. The bills usually need to be paid in dollars, not percentages, for some reason.

 

[Dazz]

I am not sure what the emotion is - embarrassment? Self conscious? Shame? threatened? I am unsure what the exact emotion is but it leaves me feeling uncertain whther its best just to keep quiet, keep vague or I dunno. Am I the only one who feels like this?

Ignoring my flippant replies at the start of the thread, my real answer to these questions is maybe all those emotions, with a few more chucked in like pride of achievement and secrecy.

In the past 10 years or so, I feel like I am leading a double life. It didn't feel that way for the first 5 years of investing cos we were basically doing what everyone else was doing and it just felt completely normal.

It wasn't until the "little property thing we have going on, on the side" started to become significant that the emotion changed from one of so-so humdrum to hey this is gathering momentum and starting to look OK.

That's when it became a tad shameful to talk about it, a tad boastful and usually came across as skiting to either family members or friends. It wasn't the tone or inflection, it was the raw numbers that started to become embarrassing or unsociable. We stopped talkign numbers.

When you're in a social setting, it's fine to listen to someone excitedly say that they just put down a deposit on their first little unit. People congratulate, people say "well good for you", people start to ask secondary questions because they can relate to it and have their own frame of reference on which to categorize and box the info. No problem. It falls comfortably within their remit.

To stand there and say that you and the wife are so excited cos just this morning you've put a deposit down on a small mine or a power station or an industrial jetty complex......I can guarantee it'll kill the conversation stone dead. People cannot relate, it doesn't fit anywhere in their frame of reference. You are instantly classed as weird or abnormal.

So what do you do ?? Keep it to yourself. Sit down and shut up. That's great - in a social setting whilst others are merrily chatting away about blocks they are sub-dividing, or spent all morning putting up a lovely beige set of curtains whilst reno-ing their newly acquired doer-upper......you have to sit in the corner and appear to be a complete boring deadsh1t.


Another aspect is the facade at work you need to keep up. Whilst most of the people in the office are engaged in corridor chit chat about how their job sucks and the boss is a domineering socially inept pr1ck, you're quietly managing this "monster on the side" that you daren't divulge to anyone else you might offend or intimidate someone, especially if it's someone higher up the food chain.

I can tell ya, it's frustrating sitting at work preparing financial paperwork for authorisation, and all of this nonsense with counter signatures and approvals process gets going, until it goes to the very top and the CEO signs off on it. Big fanfare and hulla-balloo, then you realise all of that was about a third of what you and the wife signed off last night when closing the latest deal. You sit back and go....what was all that carry on at work for ??


I think it's good to talk about your activities, and divulging a certain amount of fin. info doesn't do any harm. We were interviewed in past years where the 'piece of paper in the front window' was put up. Big deal, nothing came of it. It bears no relation to what the situation is now.

The data mining does worry me a little, but then I'm not exactly sure what the faceless IT guru can get and what they can physically or legally do with any info they do get. I know they'd be extremely hard pressed to change any of the names on the original title deeds or scrip, and at the end of the day, that's where major source of wealth and income stems from for most people I'd imagine.

All of my solicitors, Bankers and accountants reckon I'm absolutely nuts for even contributing one iota to this forum.....but then, none of them are red hot investors, and none of them have significant wealth....so I'm not about to follow them too much.

Anyway GoAnna, I reckon you should be proud of what you and GoMichael have achieved. Cheers.

 

[Pushka]

It is an interesting question, but for me if someone has done a lot of really hard work, through thoroughly honest means (ie no-one else has been burnt in the process of their accumulation, including tax payers, or done through illegal means) and maybe they have taken a few personal risks along the way, then their success stories are inspiring and gives hope for others to emulate.

But I will be one of the first to comment if someone has been worshipped and feted as being successful and a model to follow, when months/years later the methods they have used are exposed as being fraudulent, dishonest, or done at someone else's expense (and loss).

But I dont think that is tall poppy syndrome.

Any Jewish posters here? This is what a google of Pushka turned up:

http://www.kosherspirit.com/Article.asp?Issue=6&Article=69

 

[Perp]

Love this quote from that page, Pushka:

'Charity, everyone knows, means being a nice guy and giving your money to someone with less. That's why, in Jewish tradition, we never give charity. It's unheard of.

Our sages teach that whatever we have doesn't really belong to us. We are no more than treasurers. Everything that comes through our hands is given us in order to use for good things, such as educating our kids, or nourishing our body with kosher and healthy food, or giving to people who are short on what they need.

That's why in Jewish tradition we call it "giving tzedakah." Tzedakah means "doing the right thing." Putting your stuff where it really belongs. That's where your money will reap you the most benefit and bring you the most good-because that's where it's meant to be.'

 

[BayView]

Kind of a strange one.

On one hand, I believe their is absolutely no need for people to know.

On the other hand, having a number out there might:

1. inspire people to get off their butts and do something

2. give you some street cred.

This of course assumes you grabbed the fortune yourself, and not inherited it.

Cheers,

The Y-man

Absolutely correct.

It's all in the delivery.

Some people tell you how well they've done and you can tell they are all about trying to impress others - low self esteem.

And others are genuinely trying to help and educate others and along the way we find out how well they've done by default.

 

[GoAnna!]

Dazzling thank you for your wonderful post. You have captured many of the experiences I have. Can you imagine me at playgroup while the sole mothers complains bitterly about her rent rising again (still way under market) and some-one else complaining about how late her husband works and I wonder how to mention that my week has been hell because I have been trying to finance out of my development loan.

To share or not to share? Either way I am damned. It's so easy to feel like "the other".

Early on I was told that I needed to surround myself with people who had already achieved that I wanted to achieve, or were at least on the way, and I was frankly apalled. It sounded like I needed to dump all my friends and find new ones purely on the basis of their monetary position. Very disasteful indeed!

Now I see it quite differently. I do need people I can share my journey with and it sure as hell makes it more fun and I can give and recieve the support I need along the way. I still don't choose my friends based on their net wealth but I have many many people through somersoft who are in a similar position to mine and I really enjoy their company.. I can relax and just be myself with them. I don't have to catch my thoughts before they turn into words.

 

[LynnH]

What an interesting thread this has been!! Thanks for getting the ball rolling on this one, GoAnna!

My experiences have been like that of many others who have posted - there are few people with whom we discuss our IP journey. We have given up on discussing property investing with family - hubby's mother believes 'that people should only be allowed to own one house'. (I still haven't figured out how she imagines people are going to be able to rent property! )

I have been fortunate enough to be part of a small group of women investors, all of whom have a different perspective and investing style, and it is refreshing to be able to talk amongst ourselves without feeling like we're 'boasting' or trying to impress each other. And, of course, there is the wonderful community of SS and the myriad of posters who provide so much information ... and inspiration!!!

I guess what it comes down to, really, is to share only with those who are like-minded (whether it be 'IP friends' or 'share investor friends' or others who have mutual interests) - as GoAnna says, "I can relax and just be myself with them".

Cheers
LynnH

 

[Pushka]

All of my solicitors, Bankers and accountants reckon I'm absolutely nuts for even contributing one iota to this forum.....but then, none of them are red hot investors, and none of them have significant wealth....so I'm not about to follow them too much.

Along those lines, a couple of years ago when selling one of our IP's, I had checked with one accountant how much CGT we were going to be up for. When the Tax returns came back I had to pay thousands of $$$ more than what I had previously been advised. So in a panic I posted here, and thanks to Mry and Depreciator, they posted me links to ATO advice which applied only to buildings built before 1999 I think it was. As a result, I went back to my accountant and told him what I had been told on this forum and that he was wrong! He scoffed totally, told me not to believe anything you read on a " an Internet Forum" then said he would review our returns.

Of course he was wrong and Mry and Depreciator were correct, and it felt good to suggest that perhaps I needed to find a better accountant!

 

[whitehope06]

I know I have a long way to get where most of you guys are, but to tell the truth I can feel the double life just about right NOW.

As for the friends and family , they think the best thing that can happen for everyone is to have PPOR and that's it, more than that it's not possible or it's too much hassle. When I tell them there's a 23 years old guy who has 6 IP's , they say ,yeah right !

But it seems everything is possible here,SS, and that's amazing !! and it's because of YOU guys who share your stories and letting us know that what we will have a head of ourselves.

Every time , I see someone bought another IP, or doing some development, or.... it makes me happy for them ,and it's encouraging for me ,so I know I'm on the right path.It shows me it's "doable ".

So, be proud of yourself,and let us to share your joy

 

[evand]

Change the people you're socialising/working with so you can talk about it at ease.

So what do you do ??