Tall poppy syndrome on somersoft or am I just paranoid?

[lizzie]

Dazzling thank you for your wonderful post. You have captured many of the experiences I have. Can you imagine me at playgroup while the sole mothers complains bitterly about her rent rising again (still way under market) and some-one else complaining about how late her husband works and I wonder how to mention that my week has been hell because I have been trying to finance out of my development loan.

soooo true - it means that it is hard to make conversation with the other mother's at the school gate, even small talk is difficult because i spent the day talking to brokers and agents and conveyancers and council rather than at the latest sales.


how can you explain self managed super funds, joint ventures with trusts, developments and finance ... you don't even bother ... fortunately i have a small group of friends who are also on the development path (some winding down, some gearing up) and they are priceless.

 

[josko]

Ignoring my flippant replies at the start of the thread, my real answer to these questions is maybe all those emotions, with a few more chucked in like pride of achievement and secrecy.

In the past 10 years or so, I feel like I am leading a double life. It didn't feel that way for the first 5 years of investing cos we were basically doing what everyone else was doing and it just felt completely normal.

It wasn't until the "little property thing we have going on, on the side" started to become significant that the emotion changed from one of so-so humdrum to hey this is gathering momentum and starting to look OK.

That's when it became a tad shameful to talk about it, a tad boastful and usually came across as skiting to either family members or friends. It wasn't the tone or inflection, it was the raw numbers that started to become embarrassing or unsociable. We stopped talkign numbers.

When you're in a social setting, it's fine to listen to someone excitedly say that they just put down a deposit on their first little unit. People congratulate, people say "well good for you", people start to ask secondary questions because they can relate to it and have their own frame of reference on which to categorize and box the info. No problem. It falls comfortably within their remit.

To stand there and say that you and the wife are so excited cos just this morning you've put a deposit down on a small mine or a power station or an industrial jetty complex......I can guarantee it'll kill the conversation stone dead. People cannot relate, it doesn't fit anywhere in their frame of reference. You are instantly classed as weird or abnormal.

So what do you do ?? Keep it to yourself. Sit down and shut up. That's great - in a social setting whilst others are merrily chatting away about blocks they are sub-dividing, or spent all morning putting up a lovely beige set of curtains whilst reno-ing their newly acquired doer-upper......you have to sit in the corner and appear to be a complete boring deadsh1t.


Another aspect is the facade at work you need to keep up. Whilst most of the people in the office are engaged in corridor chit chat about how their job sucks and the boss is a domineering socially inept pr1ck, you're quietly managing this "monster on the side" that you daren't divulge to anyone else you might offend or intimidate someone, especially if it's someone higher up the food chain.

I can tell ya, it's frustrating sitting at work preparing financial paperwork for authorisation, and all of this nonsense with counter signatures and approvals process gets going, until it goes to the very top and the CEO signs off on it. Big fanfare and hulla-balloo, then you realise all of that was about a third of what you and the wife signed off last night when closing the latest deal. You sit back and go....what was all that carry on at work for ??


I think it's good to talk about your activities, and divulging a certain amount of fin. info doesn't do any harm. We were interviewed in past years where the 'piece of paper in the front window' was put up. Big deal, nothing came of it. It bears no relation to what the situation is now.

The data mining does worry me a little, but then I'm not exactly sure what the faceless IT guru can get and what they can physically or legally do with any info they do get. I know they'd be extremely hard pressed to change any of the names on the original title deeds or scrip, and at the end of the day, that's where major source of wealth and income stems from for most people I'd imagine.

All of my solicitors, Bankers and accountants reckon I'm absolutely nuts for even contributing one iota to this forum.....but then, none of them are red hot investors, and none of them have significant wealth....so I'm not about to follow them too much.

Anyway GoAnna, I reckon you should be proud of what you and GoMichael have achieved. Cheers.

Dazzling, those are my thoughts exactly.

If putting the numbers on this forum were about boasting, then we would be doing the same with friends and family.

But an afterthought: I don't consider myself wealthy. If I did have considerable wealth, I think I might then be more hesitant to post numbers.

Regards Jo

Great Thread GoAnna.

 

[mja]

We shouldn't need to quote specifics on SS; most here are probably intelligent enough to work out which forum members are making interesting statements and discussion versus those who just want to stir the pot.

I think we use numbers and figures to consciously qualify a person's success. "I have <x> properties, worth $<y> million." If <x> or <y> is greater than what a different person has, then automatically they think you're better than them.

I'm thinking this quote is suitable:

"If my answers frighten you, Vincent, then you should stop asking scary questions."
--Samuel L. Jackson to John Travolta, Pulp Fiction

 

[Perp]

soooo true - it means that it is hard to make conversation with the other mother's at the school gate

I'm very blessed in this regard. Despite our kids going to a very small community school with a reputation as a "hippy school", most other parents are small business owners, property investors/developers, share traders, or already living off their investments. (In one case, the family could live very well off his investments for dozens of lifetimes. ) There are also some "ordinary" PAYG folk, but per capita, we have an extremely disproportionate number of entrepreneurial types, which is great.

 

[House_Keeper]

Ignoring my flippant replies at the start of the thread, my real answer to these questions is maybe all those emotions, with a few more chucked in like pride of achievement and secrecy.

In the past 10 years or so, I feel like I am leading a double life. It didn't feel that way for the first 5 years of investing cos we were basically doing what everyone else was doing and it just felt completely normal.

It wasn't until the "little property thing we have going on, on the side" started to become significant that the emotion changed from one of so-so humdrum to hey this is gathering momentum and starting to look OK.

That's when it became a tad shameful to talk about it, a tad boastful and usually came across as skiting to either family members or friends. It wasn't the tone or inflection, it was the raw numbers that started to become embarrassing or unsociable. We stopped talkign numbers.

When you're in a social setting, it's fine to listen to someone excitedly say that they just put down a deposit on their first little unit. People congratulate, people say "well good for you", people start to ask secondary questions because they can relate to it and have their own frame of reference on which to categorize and box the info. No problem. It falls comfortably within their remit.

To stand there and say that you and the wife are so excited cos just this morning you've put a deposit down on a small mine or a power station or an industrial jetty complex......I can guarantee it'll kill the conversation stone dead. People cannot relate, it doesn't fit anywhere in their frame of reference. You are instantly classed as weird or abnormal.

So what do you do ?? Keep it to yourself. Sit down and shut up. That's great - in a social setting whilst others are merrily chatting away about blocks they are sub-dividing, or spent all morning putting up a lovely beige set of curtains whilst reno-ing their newly acquired doer-upper......you have to sit in the corner and appear to be a complete boring deadsh1t.


Another aspect is the facade at work you need to keep up. Whilst most of the people in the office are engaged in corridor chit chat about how their job sucks and the boss is a domineering socially inept pr1ck, you're quietly managing this "monster on the side" that you daren't divulge to anyone else you might offend or intimidate someone, especially if it's someone higher up the food chain.

I can tell ya, it's frustrating sitting at work preparing financial paperwork for authorisation, and all of this nonsense with counter signatures and approvals process gets going, until it goes to the very top and the CEO signs off on it. Big fanfare and hulla-balloo, then you realise all of that was about a third of what you and the wife signed off last night when closing the latest deal. You sit back and go....what was all that carry on at work for ??


I think it's good to talk about your activities, and divulging a certain amount of fin. info doesn't do any harm. We were interviewed in past years where the 'piece of paper in the front window' was put up. Big deal, nothing came of it. It bears no relation to what the situation is now.

The data mining does worry me a little, but then I'm not exactly sure what the faceless IT guru can get and what they can physically or legally do with any info they do get. I know they'd be extremely hard pressed to change any of the names on the original title deeds or scrip, and at the end of the day, that's where major source of wealth and income stems from for most people I'd imagine.

All of my solicitors, Bankers and accountants reckon I'm absolutely nuts for even contributing one iota to this forum.....but then, none of them are red hot investors, and none of them have significant wealth....so I'm not about to follow them too much.

Anyway GoAnna, I reckon you should be proud of what you and GoMichael have achieved. Cheers.

Great Post dazz.

I have a similar problem, although on a much smaller scale.

I can't talk about our investments to our family, as they think that anybody holding many investment properties must be a greedy capitalist. People see us much more negatively because of the wealth we have.

At work, I keep quiet about my investments activities as most people wouldn't relate to the numbers involved. I don't want to brag. Simply hinting that we don't have a mortgage (for our PPOR) doesn't go down well.

It's a bit frustrating sometimes, but that's life. I can't change my family and I generally enjoy my work, so I have to accept what comes with it.

That's why it's so great to have the somersoft forum. It is a great community where mostly positive people share their experience and support each other. It's great to be able to get feedback from other investors who are in a similar situation.

Still, I wouldn't post my wealth on somersoft. I still feel that it is bragging and unnecessary. You can tell whether someone's posts are derived from actual experience or whether it is an attempt to show off their limited knowledge.

Cheers,

 

[dreaming]

This has been a great thread, thanks for it Go anna. I really enjoy seeing the numbers other people come up with and find it really interesting to see some of the debt to equity ratios out there.
This has led me to other questions like how do they service there loans or how do they sleep, also realizing that I am sitting quite well and weather stepping up to the next level is something I could cope with.
Like has already been stated, talking about having an IP is sort of OK but telling people you have a few and are thinking of what should be your next step gets a different response.
I'm probably a bit naive about info I put out on this forum but at least I know the majority of people here are thinking along the same lines in regards to property investing.
Post, don't post, doesn't matter, a person like you always contributes well to this site.

 

[willair]

I find that a when there are threads polls where people write 800K gross $200K equity I hesitate tow write down my real numbers. I am not sure what the emotion is - embarrassment? Self conscious? Shame? threatened? I am unsure what the exact emotion is but it leaves me feeling uncertain whther its best just to keep quiet, keep vague or I dunno. Am I the only one who feels like this? Am I just paranoid? Does no-one really care?

No one cares,it took us 16 years to break the one million mark in equity that was in 1998,and through several markets and with high interest rates slow capital growth,and all the hard work and do without most things people have in their normal life,but the one time i will always remember is when the accountant we used for 17 years told me one simple rule in 1999
it's about time you stop work right now, it's better to not work and have to pay very limited tax,or go back to work and keep paying high tax my wife looked at me that was a very special monent for us that's what investing is about,idon't care what people think of me..willair..

 

[BayView]

Change the people you're socialising/working with so you can talk about it at ease.

I would love to, but there are so few people doing what we are all doing that it's hard to find them - close to home.

I think that's the reason why I'm here so much; like minded folk, and no-one's eyes glaze over when you talk IP's.

 

[GreenTreeFrog]

I love reading about other peoples investment journey's. I find success, on any scale, incredibly inspiring. I find the not so successful stories very educational!

Reading the details of someone elses property portfolio would only drive me to want to achieve more. To know what other peoples future plans are for their particular scenario would be so richly informative as well.

Since our first and subsequent property purchases and then me finding this site, my ideas on investment in property have changed enormously thanks to the generous input from so many people on here.

I wish this were a private forum so we could share more specific details on investments decisions and the numbers related.

I think there is a lot for me to learn from what other people have achieved.

So thanks everyone for what you do share!

 

[handyandy]

I find that a when there are threads polls where people write 800K gross $200K equity I hesitate tow write down my real numbers. I am not sure what the emotion is - embarrassment? Self conscious? Shame? threatened? I am unsure what the exact emotion is but it leaves me feeling uncertain whther its best just to keep quiet, keep vague or I dunno. Am I the only one who feels like this? Am I just paranoid? Does no-one really care?

Most times I feel that the way I have achieved success is irrelevant to most other SS's.

There are those SS's who have leveraged to achieve their holdings and really have worked the property angle to the hilt to achieve fantastic Nets

There are those who have simply plodded along collecting property but all the time carried on with their ordinary lives.

There are those who use property as a business, such as wrapping, where property is just an expensive product that needs to be moved.

There are those who have fantastic incomes who are using property as a way of offsetting high tax and also accumulating assets for use in later live.

And off course there are many people who use combinations of any of the above plus other strategies not mentioned.

In all cases these are all the people who respond to a poll of gross and net values, So really how relevant are your own figures in this mix of strategies that we generically call property investing?

Most times I participate in polls but hesitate to quote actual dollar figures, using %'s instead. The place where I use dollar figures is for my income which has been my ultimate aim in participating in this concept of 'property investing' from the outset.

When I first started investing I was proud and cocky and told everybody - quick slap delivered by an acquaintance at a bbq 'I don't do that and leave to the FHB' or words to that affect. This was back in 1985. He would have been a great GHPC'er Picked myself up and carried on as I had already decided that to replace my wage I would need 7 houses.

By the way I looked up to this guy as he was running his own successful business. Unfortunately he never achieved any point beyond simply running the business and working in it. In the end he was squeeze out by his partner and has ended up broke - as he had no other investments. In another conversation he thought that investing was having a fleet of vehicles. This certainly destroyed any credibility.

Anyway back to the question. The actual value of what I have achieved is somewhat irrelevant to me as my focus has and remains the income that my investment can achieve with the cap gain somewhat irrelevant. But that is just me and I can hear all the LOE types going 'no no no'

How did we achieve our current place on the path was initially as plodders. We then were able to start a business using the equity from the 4 properties we then owned which was successful beyond my wildest dreams. This business threw of massive cashflow which we then invested back into property. Really no big deal as it really came down to where shall we invest the money this time.

But it was whilst running this business that I couldn't speak of our success to any people from the client company to which we provided services. Thees people were the bulk of my peers and also social circle. This all became very hard and in the end I just moved away socially from this group. Be it that they all knew I was 'into' property they would not have coped with the growing size of our little empire without exhibiting the tall poppy mowing behavior.

So in answering any poll or for that matter general questions about your journey it in no way brings to bear the tribulation that were experienced and I think it is this that affects you.

Cheers

(hope this all makes sense)

 

[Dazz]

Nice handyandy....you put a lot of considered thought into that response.

It would be good to meet you one day and sit down over a beer and havachat.

 

[Norwester]

Truthfully I'm generally embarrased to ask some questions here.........'cause you guys are just a gazillion miles ahead of me......

Anyhow completely contradicting that opening statement........How would you handle criticism of your success from within your own immediate family unit (ie children)?

The BBQ, social,work, extended family rubbish we deal with quite well, but rather interestingly we now cop the criticism from two of our children (boy 24yrs and girl 17 yrs).

Maybe something for those with young'ins to think about.........???

Ciao

Nor

 

[BayView]

Truthfully I'm generally embarrased to ask some questions here.........'cause you guys are just a gazillion miles ahead of me......

Anyhow completely contradicting that opening statement........How would you handle criticism of your success from within your own immediate family unit (ie children)?

The BBQ, social,work, extended family rubbish we deal with quite well, but rather interestingly we now cop the criticism from two of our children (boy 24yrs and girl 17 yrs).

Maybe something for those with young'ins to think about.........???

Ciao

Nor

Never be embarrassed to ask.

Everyone is keen to help, but there are a few smart@arses who might try to make you feel small.

Just ignore them.

 

[GoAnna!]

Truthfully I'm generally embarrased to ask some questions here.........'cause you guys are just a gazillion miles ahead of me......

Anyhow completely contradicting that opening statement........How would you handle criticism of your success from within your own immediate family unit (ie children)?

The BBQ, social,work, extended family rubbish we deal with quite well, but rather interestingly we now cop the criticism from two of our children (boy 24yrs and girl 17 yrs).

Maybe something for those with young'ins to think about.........???

Ciao

Nor

I think that once our kids figure out that most of the properties are in a family trust they might be a little more polite

The eldest is only 5 so she just looks in real estate windows and asks "Are those your houses mummy?"

 

[Perp]

The BBQ, social,work, extended family rubbish we deal with quite well, but rather interestingly we now cop the criticism from two of our children (boy 24yrs and girl 17 yrs).

May I ask the nature of their concern? Do they think you're pushing up prices for FHBs? Are they concerned you're over-extended? Do they think you've "got enough"? Excuse the probing - it's just that the nature of their concern makes a big difference to the advice I'd give.

 

[Player]

Hi GoAnna,

when they've figured that out and they're old to enough to also understand what a "testamentary trust" is they will overwhelm you with politeness as they figure you will also have control from the grave.

On a happier note, it must make you proud to haver your 5 year old say "Are those your houses mummy?" to you.

My daughter is 7 and when she sees me scanning weekend papers or online (rea or domain, etc) she "asks are we buying that one daddy?" When I reply that it depends....she asks how much rent will it receive........gotta start them young.

Great thread you've initiated.

 

[GoAnna!]

Hi GoAnna,

when they've figured that out and they're old to enough to also understand what a "testamentary trust" is they will overwhelm you with politeness as they figure you will also have control from the grave.

On a happier note, it must make you proud to haver your 5 year old say "Are those your houses mummy?" to you.

My daughter is 7 and when she sees me scanning weekend papers or online (rea or domain, etc) she "asks are we buying that one daddy?" When I reply that it depends....she asks how much rent will it receive........gotta start them young.

Great thread you've initiated.

I had trouble explaining to her that we just "borrow" holiday houses. hehehehe

She tells people "We don't have much money. We have 6 houses" I get some strange looks after that!

 

[Raddles]

HI there
funny how the children do react - I note my youngest (11 years) is very circumspect about her spending because she doesn't want to add to our "debt problem".

That of course allows a discussion about good and bad debt. Just wish the older one (18 years) would cotton on to that a bit better.
thanks

 

[wylie]

During a recent argument about the fact that he has to pay $20 per week board (big deal) my nearly 20 year old said two interesting things.

1. When I reminded him that $20 wouldn't cover even his weekly food by a long, long shot, and reminded him we are paying his HELP debt in advance, he told me that it didn't help him, as it is not something that he sees now. He said he is quite happy to accumulate HELP debt..... so that is what he will be doing from now on . We need the $6K per annum more than he thinks he does (go figure...).

2. When he told me that some of his friends not only don't pay board, but some of them are given an allowance, I suggested he go and live with their families . I then asked him how many of those friends would be handed a house (or more) down the track? And that we needed him to help support our efforts to pay off these IPs. He said "I didn't ask you to buy the houses."

Have to say that all three boys have grown up with hammers and paint brushes in their hands whenever it has been needed for both our own places and my parents' places over the years, and understandably they are sick of renovating. I am a bit over it as well, but when something needs doing, we just do it. Last time mum and I sat down and counted the renos/paint jobs we have done over 30 years we got to over 30 and that was a few renos back.

Part of me dreads the next renovation (because I am a bit lazy), but I do enjoy seeing the end result, and I suppose it is sort of my day job, just not every day. When we do a reno, we tend to throw ourselves into it and work long hours for a couple of weeks, and the kids get sick of either helping, or fending for themselves while we work. To be honest, the 19 and 16 year olds haven't helped very much with the last couple because they both have part time jobs, school and uni, and don't want to spend their down time renovating. I understand that.

I am just a bit amazed at what he said (quoted above). Makes me want to give it all to charity, just to teach him a lesson .

These boys have dropped everything in the past to pitch in (albeit sometimes reluctantly) and I know that they will appreciate it down the track, but sometimes I just shake my head at their attitude.

I think my boys think that if we didn't have these IPs, we would be jetting off overseas each year or going out to dinner twice a week. I am not sure what their thoughts are, but part of it is just being grumpy teenagers and disagreeing with whatever we say, just because that is what teenagers do .

 

[josko]

During a recent argument about the fact that he has to pay $20 per week board (big deal) my nearly 20 year old said two interesting things.



I think my boys think that if we didn't have these IPs, we would be jetting off overseas each year or going out to dinner twice a week. I am not sure what their thoughts are, but part of it is just being grumpy teenagers and disagreeing with whatever we say, just because that is what teenagers do .

Hi Wylie,

(I hope you don't mind, I cut the quote to save space!)

I think it's great that you have had your sons pitch in. My 10 and 7 yr olds have just started by painting window sills. By the sounds of it, teenagers aren't happy about anything that doesn't evolve around themselves, but I think they'll appreciate it when they're a little older.

I think most of us can relate to jobs our parents made us do when we were kids - it's good grounding.

A couple of months ago my 10 yr old asked if he could practice his speach - he is on a Public Speaking Team.

It was titled "My Parents". I was described as " renting houses to the poor people " and he went on to say how many houses we have and that " we will retire rich, not like Nan and Pop."

Needless to say we had a talk, but I was a little shocked at how much he knew. We are pleased that he seemed to grasp the concept of what we are trying to do though.

Out of the mouths of babes!

Housekeeper:

I have a similar problem, although on a much smaller scale.

I can't talk about our investments to our family, as they think that anybody holding many investment properties must be a greedy capitalist. People see us much more negatively because of the wealth we have.

At work, I keep quiet about my investments activities as most people wouldn't relate to the numbers involved. I don't want to brag. Simply hinting that we don't have a mortgage (for our PPOR) doesn't go down well.

I think most of us are the same. My mother recently asked me how I was going with the IR rises. When I told her we were struggling, she practically said, "I told you so."

It's just the way it is.

Regards Jo