I didnt know he said it was wired minus the earth. i thought he said the hack open circuited neutral.
Do I need a sparky to change a light switch?
- Thread starter Jonathon
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In the interest of a better understanding,
If we have a situation where the metal light fitting is earthed,
the active at the globe socket is live via the switch,
and the neutral is open circuited behind the switch,
how does the light still work?
yes it can. Also, there might be another neutral from somewhere else at the light batten holder neutral terminal. There might not be only one neutral at the light batten.
A metal light fitting can become live for other reasons.
By the way, a guy was electrocuted (killed) in a cafe in Newtown, Sydney last night. Not sure of the circumstances, i was half asleep listening to the radio.
A metal light fitting can become live for other reasons.
By the way, a guy was electrocuted (killed) in a cafe in Newtown, Sydney last night. Not sure of the circumstances, i was half asleep listening to the radio.
A couple of pages back Evan spoke about "changing spark plugs".
For me, doing simple wiring tasks is like changing a spark plug. But I would know some electrical theory that neither Evan nor Rixter would know.
I have worked on a wide range of electrical/electronic devices (some high powered) and all are plugged into a power source but I cannot, by law, change a three pin plug. I did a one day course on how to use a megger (a device I learnt how to use 40 years before) and the regulations involved and can now, legally, put an electrical safety tag on my own machines. It it fails I cannot re-do the plug and retest. A sparkie must be called to do the job. I didn't ask if I was allowed to tighten the screw on an earth link so don't know.
For me, doing simple wiring tasks is like changing a spark plug. But I would know some electrical theory that neither Evan nor Rixter would know.
I have worked on a wide range of electrical/electronic devices (some high powered) and all are plugged into a power source but I cannot, by law, change a three pin plug. I did a one day course on how to use a megger (a device I learnt how to use 40 years before) and the regulations involved and can now, legally, put an electrical safety tag on my own machines. It it fails I cannot re-do the plug and retest. A sparkie must be called to do the job. I didn't ask if I was allowed to tighten the screw on an earth link so don't know.
There's a lot of ignorance in this thread, and thats the real danger.
Some people are saying it is easy to fit a new switch or GPO, and it is. What they are missing is that the real danger is in the persons ability in isolating the circuit beforehand AND testing it's dead before touching the conductors. And that includes testing the tester!
Also, the little details.. Most homeowners or consumers wouldn't understand the danger of not having the 2 little white caps covering the light switch or GPO mounting screws. Yep, if the installer is not careful, or aware of the risk, the screw heads may be live.
Someone laughed at the suggestion that a roof cavity should be inspected by an electrician before installing insulation. While I don't agree this is always necessary, there is a valid reason. If the insulation is installed over cables that have been thrown directly on top of the ceiling sheeting, they are derated in their current carrying capability and could run hot buried under the insulation. If the cable have been clipped to the trusses, this isn't an issue.
It amazes me that Joe Public can walk into Bunnings and buy all the stuff he is not allowed to use by law. Why don't you have to produce an electrical license upon purchase? The refrigeration guys have their trade all stitched up tightly. You can't buy refrigeration gases without showing a license, but the have the EPA working with them. Environment > Lives.
Some people are saying it is easy to fit a new switch or GPO, and it is. What they are missing is that the real danger is in the persons ability in isolating the circuit beforehand AND testing it's dead before touching the conductors. And that includes testing the tester!
Also, the little details.. Most homeowners or consumers wouldn't understand the danger of not having the 2 little white caps covering the light switch or GPO mounting screws. Yep, if the installer is not careful, or aware of the risk, the screw heads may be live.
Someone laughed at the suggestion that a roof cavity should be inspected by an electrician before installing insulation. While I don't agree this is always necessary, there is a valid reason. If the insulation is installed over cables that have been thrown directly on top of the ceiling sheeting, they are derated in their current carrying capability and could run hot buried under the insulation. If the cable have been clipped to the trusses, this isn't an issue.
It amazes me that Joe Public can walk into Bunnings and buy all the stuff he is not allowed to use by law. Why don't you have to produce an electrical license upon purchase? The refrigeration guys have their trade all stitched up tightly. You can't buy refrigeration gases without showing a license, but the have the EPA working with them. Environment > Lives.
Yet another post using scare tactics along the same lines "We can't let Joe Public change a light switch, they will kill themselves."
The only problem with this argument is that it doesn't match reality.
How do you explain that, with all this regulation, Australia has one of the highest levels of electrical fatalities in the world?
Given the length of this thread....
FFS, just bloodywell change the thing and be done with it......
House Keeper,
Sadly,some do. Electricity is not like a lot of other mediums that give an instantaneous sensory indicator of systemic failure. It just patiently waits for the right circumstance to arise.........gotcha when you least expect it....
Evan,
I was presuming Battler was referring to a single tail neutral at the light fitting with switch looping under normal operating conditions. Whilst failure modes can be many and varied, it would be very rare if not impossible for an open circuit neutral to liven an earthed fitting. If the exposed metal of the fitting was not earthed or there was a downstream issue then the possibility increases.......
ciao
Nor
FFS, just bloodywell change the thing and be done with it......
House Keeper,
Sadly,some do. Electricity is not like a lot of other mediums that give an instantaneous sensory indicator of systemic failure. It just patiently waits for the right circumstance to arise.........gotcha when you least expect it....
Evan,
I was presuming Battler was referring to a single tail neutral at the light fitting with switch looping under normal operating conditions. Whilst failure modes can be many and varied, it would be very rare if not impossible for an open circuit neutral to liven an earthed fitting. If the exposed metal of the fitting was not earthed or there was a downstream issue then the possibility increases.......
ciao
Nor
So you really think that there is a higher percentage Australians doing it, despite it being illegal, than in Holland, where it is legal?
The solution to ineffective regulation is not more regulation.
India tried that in the 1980's. It crippled the whole country. Only after 1991 when they got rid of all sort of useless regulation did things started moving and the country started to get out of poverty.Regulation is not always the answer.
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And this is where Evan hit the nail on the head.
Electricity is not like a lot of other mediums that give an instantaneous sensory indicator of systemic failure. It just patiently waits for the right circumstance to arise.........gotcha when you least expect it....
Evan,
I was presuming Battler was referring to a single tail neutral at the light fitting with switch looping under normal operating conditions.
Yes I was, going on what Units said, but I am delighted that Evan threw that in about the possibility of an unforseen neutral completing the circuit.
A lot of electrical wiring is hidden in walls etc, and amongst the dangers can be a situation where there are two buildings joined together but on separate circuits and separate metering. In this case it is not all that uncommon for someone to connect into a circuit in the roof to add a GPO or whatever. In this case the power may be turned off for #1 building but that GPO could still be live as it's been connected from #2s building circuit which hasn't been turned off.
Keep in mind that governments use this stuff for the death penalty.
OK so why is it legal to change your own spark plugs?
Poor/incorrect vehicle maintenance is a potential killer. I did hundreds of brake repairs when in the trade. My clients got a good job at a fair price, (drive in, it's done) but if the same regs existed that apply to the electrical trades they would have had to book in days before and been ripped of by a "specialist".
No! None of my clients had subsequent brake failure!
A (crappy) plumber put my wife at risk and another killed a guy when he drilled a roof screw through a live wire making part of the roof "live". The poor guy who stepped from one roofing level to another was killed.
Electrical deaths are mostly "from left field". I agree totally though: If you don't know what you are doing leave it alone, and that applies to much more than wiring.
Poor/incorrect vehicle maintenance is a potential killer. I did hundreds of brake repairs when in the trade. My clients got a good job at a fair price, (drive in, it's done) but if the same regs existed that apply to the electrical trades they would have had to book in days before and been ripped of by a "specialist".
No! None of my clients had subsequent brake failure!
A (crappy) plumber put my wife at risk and another killed a guy when he drilled a roof screw through a live wire making part of the roof "live". The poor guy who stepped from one roofing level to another was killed.
Electrical deaths are mostly "from left field". I agree totally though: If you don't know what you are doing leave it alone, and that applies to much more than wiring.
Excellent point. Less regulation works in Europe because people who don't know what they are doing don't attempt to do the work, partly because it is cheap to find someone who does but also because there isn't a culture of unnecessary risk taking.
This topic reminds me of our binge drinking problem. Australia and the UK ban alcohol for minors, making getting hammered an almost mandatory hallmark of a coming of age celebration and onwards from there. Continental Europe has no curbs on alcohol access to minors - any kid can wander into a supermarket and walk out with a case of whatever they can pay for. But they have far less of a binge drinking problem. They also don't have to worry about policing the whole thing. The culture (German beer festivals being the only real exception) just doesn't value drinking to excess like ours as a result. If something isn't forbidden it's no longer particularly interesting or rebellious. That type of culture is a reflection of their lack of regulation - it doesn't exist where you strictly regulate under age access to alcohol.
Less regulation has a lot going for it but unfortunately the knee jerk reaction to any problem these days seems to be to jump for an ever fatter rule book, with more licence fees / taxes required to feed the bloated bureaucracy that is required to police it all...
'Twas a lot of years ago I was in Spain having attended a "coin in the slot" convention. At that time the pokie cancer was still restricted to NSW but there was a lot of talk about it everywhere else.
Spain seemed to have no laws/limitations on gambling because no-one cared. Cantinas existed everywhere but they may,or may not have had a lonely slot machine in the corner nobody cared about. I got the impression that the laws were similar to those of video games here, ie an agreement between two parties the Gov had no interest in.
The point is: Aussies ain't Europeans.
I would argue that New Zealanders are even GREATER risk takers, and are most certainly much more DIY than aussies.
Yet with this in mind, why do they have substantially LESS electrocutions whilst having no regulations forbidding people doing their own electrical wiring??
