End of WWII

[topcropper]

{Edit: Split off from another thread. GeoffW}

What would you call someone that drops two atomic bombs on a people that offered to surrender?
.

The Japanese offered to surrender? First I've heard of that? I thought they only surrendered after the US used the atomic bombs?


See ya's.

 

[wategos]

The Japanese offered to surrender? First I've heard of that? I thought they only surrendered after the US used the atomic bombs?

They were trying to negotiate terms of surrender, the bombs were not necessary, just a vile experiment.

 

[topcropper]

They were trying to negotiate terms of surrender, the bombs were not necessary, just a vile experiment.

Where is that said anywhere? The US warned Japan to surrender and were ignored. Then the bombs were dropped. The US knew an invasion would cost the lives of hundreds of thousands.

Seems like we are rewriting history? The US, who were under no real threat, and who sacrifice hundreds of thousands of their own sons and daughters to save the world are now the bad guys?

Anyway, I'm thankful for what they did in world war 2. It would be a different place if they had of stayed out of it.


See ya's.

 

[NedKelly]

Anyway, I'm thankful for what they did in world war 2. It would be a different place if they had of stayed out of it.


See ya's.

Yes, and WW1 as well. Japan were on our side then.

 

[geoffw]

I was interested to see what happened so I looked it up.

While there were negotiations for an unconditional surrender, the military didn't want this. While publicly calling for a fight to the end, privately they were trying to negotiate a more favourable surrender with the Soviet Union.

Even after the bombs were dropped, the military hard liners didn't want to surrender, and there was even a coup d'etat against the emperor. It took six more days before the emperor announced surrender.

The Japanese however were a spend force by that time, and not really capable of fighting for much longer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan

As heinous as the dropping of the bomb was, nothing in war is good. It is a human activity designed purely to kill and hurt as many of the other side as is possible. Decisions made in the context of war can not be isolated and judged as stand alone events in the context of peace.

That all being said- I find it an incredible stretch to compare the dropping of the atomic bomb with Nelson Mandela. As I've said, he was a human who made mistakes, but who is being remembered largely for the positive contribution he made to the peaceful transition to a unity rule. Whatever problems the country still has, they are small compared with the problems which may have occurred if the country had continued going in the direction it had gone.

If we look at the men who achieved great things in recent times, none of them was a saint by any stretch of the imagination. Some of them we only found out later were not what they appeared to be. They were all men with faults, who reacted to what was happening around them- not always in the best way, but leaving the world a better place than it would otherwise have been.

It's possible that Mandela was responsible for the death of some, possibly many. I don't know the facts of that. I do know though that his government of reconciliation achieved something of a unity, even if a fragile one- and probably avoiding the deaths of a great many more such as in the tribal rivalries of Rwanda or the black on white which has all but destroyed the economy of Zimbabwe.

 

[topcropper]

Thanks Geoff. Sounds like there is a Japanese version of what happened these days.

 

[devank]

Why did US boomed Japan but not Germany? Is it because Japanese were different 'race'? or is it because UK was closer to Germany??

 

[Aaron_C]

Why did US boomed Japan but not Germany? Is it because Japanese were different 'race'? or is it because UK was closer to Germany??

Bomb wasn't ready until after Germany surrendered....

 

[Crabnet]

Why did US boomed Japan but not Germany? Is it because Japanese were different 'race'? or is it because UK was closer to Germany??

Germany was bombed but the bombs weren't atomic. Look up firebombing of Dresden.
Warning link is to pictures of the aftermath which may distress some viewers.


On 31 January, Bottomley sent a message to Portal saying a heavy attack on Dresden and other cities "will cause great confusion in civilian evacuation from the east and hamper movement of reinforcements from other fronts". British historian Frederick Taylor mentions a further memo sent to the Chiefs of Staff Committee by Sir Douglas Evill on 1 February, in which Evill states interfering with mass civilian movements was a major, even key, factor in the decision to bomb the city center. Attacks there, where main rail junctions, telephone systems, city administration, and utilities were located, would result in chaos. Britain had learned this after the Coventry Blitz, when loss of this crucial infrastructure had longer-lasting effects than attacks on war plants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

 

[pieman]

They were trying to negotiate terms of surrender, the bombs were not necessary, just a vile experiment.

In some ways the "best thing" to have had happen to end ww2 They were never going to surrender, even when they were being bombed night and day before bombs were dropped, all around the pacific they would fight and never give up. Even after Hiroshima/Nagasaki there was high ranking officiLs that attempted to stop the emperor speaking to the masses and "enduring the unendurable"

 

[The Fence]

The Japs are renowned for their "honour" in dying for the country.

Hari kari and all that stuff.

They would have gone on till the end except the US showed them a way that could wipe em all out and they decided oopps...better not, we do want to live on.....

Funny how the soldiers had that "honour" but I never heard of a general or head of state do it....?

 

[Dazz]

Funny how the soldiers had that "honour" but I never heard of a general or head of state do it....?

Plenty of examples The Fence.....the big dogs do it plenty good. That's a very typical Ozzie thing to do, hookin' into the top brass.

http://www.nikkeiview.com/blog/2009/03/the-japanese-example-is-not-suicide/

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/56382247

 

[Dazz]

I am very disturbed at some of the posts on this thread.

Maybe see a professional for help ??

 

[wategos]

They were never going to surrender, even when they were being bombed night and day before bombs were dropped, all around the pacific they would fight and never give up.

This is not true, there were many indications of their preparation for surrender, including an intercepted cable 3 weeks prior to the atomic bombing that outlined conditions almost identical to those ultimately accepted. The Americans knew they had little time left to test their new bomb, so they hurried things along.

Secretary of State John Foster Dulles:
"On July 20, 1945, under instructions from Washington, I went to the Potsdam Conference and reported there to Secretary [of War] Stimson on what I had learned from Tokyo ? they desired to surrender if they could retain the Emperor and their constitution as a basis for maintaining discipline and order in Japan after the devastating news of surrender became known to the Japanese people.?"

Admiral William D. Leahy, who served as Chief of Staff for both FDR and Truman, was even more blunt:
"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons."

Anyway .. I guess this has nothing to do with Mandela but it's annoying to see US revisionist history being propagated. Hiroshima, which I visited once, should be a symbol of American shame and guilt.

 

[topcropper]

Hiroshima, which I visited once, should be a symbol of American shame and guilt.

This is disgraceful. If you want to blame someone for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, blame the Japanese generals and emperors and whoever else led them into the stupid war. What about the act of bombing Pearl Harbour? Quite possibly the dumbest ever act in a war. Woke up a sleeping giant!

The US had an obligation to bring this war to a quick end. They knew an invasion of Japan would have killed tens of thousands of their own and possibly millions of Japanese.

Japan was also working on an atomic bomb, as was Germany and the Soviets. We saw the barbaric and cruel way Japan fought the war. Flip knows what they would have done if they had a nuclear bomb first.

Thank goodness for the US and what they did. A lot of us wouldn't be here otherwise.


See ya's.

 

[topcropper]

This is not true, there were many indications of their preparation for surrender, including an intercepted cable 3 weeks prior to the atomic bombing that outlined conditions almost identical to those ultimately accepted. The Americans knew they had little time left to test their new bomb, so they hurried things along.

.

So why didn't they surrender? To suggest that the US vapourised tens of thousands of people for the fun of it is just pathetic!


See ya's.

 

[pieman]

This is not true, there were many indications of their preparation for surrender, including an intercepted cable 3 weeks prior to the atomic bombing that outlined conditions almost identical to those ultimately accepted. The Americans knew they had little time left to test their new bomb, so they hurried things along.

You've been sucked in buddy, 'spose you believe the CIA planted bombs in the twin towers too

 

[wategos]

You've been sucked in buddy, 'spose you believe the CIA planted bombs in the twin towers too ��

Of course not, what a ridiculous stretch of logic. I base my opinions on historical facts, which point to the conclusion that the atomic bombings were a massive war crime.

Another opinion:
GENERAL DWIGHT EISENHOWER
(Supreme Commander of Allies Forces in Europe)

". . . the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

Ike on Ike, Newsweek, 11/11/63.

 

[grand dad]

On Megalomania and the Military Industrial Complex

What about the act of bombing Pearl Harbour?
See ya's.

Pearl Harbour was a military target, the overwhelming majority of casualties were men in unform, not civilians. Bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki (or Dresden for that matter) was essentially about terrorizing and killing civilians, many of whom had nothing to do with the war effort. If anything Nagasaki had a large Christian population that was more sympathetic to the West than any other place in Japan. If the US genuinely wanted to show its might, they could have scared everybody by dropping the Bomb in Tokyo harbor. Fewer casualties, bigger effect!

Topcropper, you need to be cautious about what you believe. Read about what the former Secretary of Defence, Robert McNamara, had to say about the false flag which was used to justify the war in Vietnam. How ironic that so-called Communist Vietnam today has excellent military relations with the USA! You need to visit the Vietnam War Memorial in Washington DC to grasp how futile the war was. It achieved nothing.

As for WMD in Iraq.......they never found them did they? Another lie that we were fed. Saddam could have been eliminated back in Gulf War 1. But he was a convenient buffer against Iran. We encouraged the Shiites to rise against him and then allowed him to crush them.

As for Iran - the normalization of relations with this so-called rogue state is in progress. The US military and the CIA regularly share intelligence with their Iranian counterparts vis a vis Afghanistan. Pure hypocrisy if you ask me to say one thing "Axis of Evil" and then do the other.

For the record, I'm not a looney tree hugging greenie - I'm a conservative, thoroughly disillusioned by US megalomania and the evils of the military industrial complex.

 

[BayView]

For the record, I'm not a looney tree hugging greenie - I'm a conservative, thoroughly disillusioned by US megalomania and the evils of the military industrial complex.

Same here.

The US War Machine is so vast, and with sooo many third parties and beneficiaries and contractors with their fingers in that pie who can secure Congressional support (some of the above Congressmen no doubt) that they will always be looking for the next conflict to feedl the beast.

At least it give all those unemployed youth around the Country something to do for a crust, I suppose.