Diet, Exercise and Weight loss - help!

[HiEquity]

Excellent info in this thread Winston.

I just wanted to add that not all animal proteins are created equal. Fish three times (or more) per week is fine IF the fish involved is a bottom of the food chain, short lived variety. So small whiting, herring, bream, trout, even farmed salmon etc. Tuna however qualifies as closer to the top of the food chain so eat moderately although I'm not so sure of the farmed stuff as their diet is controlled for them. Shark is definitely toward the top although most commercial shark species are taken relatively young.

This is all due to potential concentration of heavy metals. Top of the food chain fish have a long time to ingest and concentrate heavy metals from all the fish they eat in their (longer) life while heavy metal levels in bottom of the food chain varieties are much less. In any case, you have to eat an awful lot of fish for any of this to be a problem anyway, so don't let it put you off!

Other than the (IMO slightly over hyped) heavy metal issue, fish is a fantastic source of protein / omega 3s etc for so many reasons and great for weight loss. It also helps that the bottom of the food chain fish species are relatively cheap and abundant...

 

[Mooze]

Wylie - for sports drinks you can also get ones that are more for the salt/minerals replacement without as much sugar. These include enervit (not bad taste wise), endura (personal fave taste wise), hammer gel (bit chalky tasting), high 5 (taste pretty good but can be a bit sweet), and Gu2o (lemon lime is not bad). Most you can get online, at a local sports or bike store, or the chemist. They come in powder form so you can add them to your water bottle to the concentrate you desire.

 

[nhb74]

Hi there, Sorry I didn't read every post but here are my suggestions. These have worked for me training for weigh-ins in various competition to get down to the weight class I competed in.

High intensity Cardio/fitness training eg. Crossfit is awesome! boxercise, running and hill sprints if knees, ankles allow this. Basically high intensity is not easy and you have to be motivated. Making it interesting is the key so crossfit and boxercise worked well for me. If you are prepared to go through uncomfortable training sessions and you keep at it it will eventually pay off and it will start to get fun The hardest part is to get started.

Also I'm not a doctor or dietician so after reading your health history don't follow any plan you read on this forum without consulting a doctor etc.. first

 

[WinstonWolfe]

HE, thx for nice words.
yeah the research certainly shows fish are better for your CV system.

The PUFAs (omega 3/6s) also have the anti-inflammatory effect and brain/nerve myelin sheath benefits but these come moreso from the oily tuna and salmon.

The consensus is it is better to eat fish than more red stuff.....though many make a fair comment that most of the lit against red meat is farmed animals. It is true game meats (including kangaroo) are lower in fat, like <2.5%. But there's indoles and other things in red meat that could still contribute to cancer and CV risk....still an unknown.

At the end of the day, I'll stand with the latest science and I think Dean Ornish represents that best.

Mooze, yes there are non sugar electrolyte drinks now. They have more salt in them to compensate the poor small intestine absorption in the absence of glucose.

Wylie, I'll get back to your q's tonight. I have to go burn some fat myself.

 

[natmarie73]

Sugar is magic stuff. Best fix there is for a sugar crash - when you go all shakey and in that state you can't do anything useful like think, or drive, be civil or stay vertical. I *cannot* skip meals or snacks, and I've pretty much always been like this, despite dire warnings of metabolism slowdown coming from people when I turned 25 ... 30 ... now its 35.

Says me having a large bowl of spag bog for morning tea at 11am because apparently breakfast today was just Too Small ... oh well, should hold me till 2pm lunch ...

*sigh*

Another reason I have cut carbs out of my diet - I used to crash horribly in the early afternoon and have sugar cravings all day like some sort of junkie. Now I don't think about food at all and am kept satisfied with lots of healthy snacks throughout the day and my last meal (protein and salad) being at 4.30to 5.00pm. I find that even having some Extra sugarfree gum makes me crave something sweet though.

And the best thing is that the fat keeps dropping off - gone from size 9/10 to 6/8 in two months.

 

[sue78]

I actually don't believe in the no carb diet.

Being asian, you should know that rice does not make you gain weight since how many asians do u know that are stick thin yet eat loads of rice. Rice is our staple diet, it's good carbs. I can exercise everyday, eat healthily but I will not give up rice or even reduce rice in take.

How tall are you? My husband is 5'11' and about 95kgs, he's bordering overweight but looks ok. I am concerned though at the amount of visceral fat content. That's the dangerous fat between your organs that causes health problems. It's only through regular exercise that you can eliminate that fat. To get an idea of the visceral fat, you would need an MRI..it's not measurable.

You have to exercise, everyday and maintain a healthy diet and could still go weeks without losing even 1kg. But losing weight slowly is the BEST way to lose weight because any other fad diets would make you put it all back on plus more as soon as you stop. Do what you are comfortable with and you feel you can maintain all the time.

I am asian too, I eat out at least 3x a week, I ate loads over CNY!! I love food. I have not really changed my eating habits too much as I'm not a big eater anyway. This is how I've always ate even when I was 52kg but after 3 kids and putting on 10kgs each pregnancy, it's really hard to lose the weight. It's really unfair because I'm not a big eater.

For about 3mths now I've done 1hr cardio each night which also includes a bit of weight resistance training (do cardio first) and I drink a hot glass of water each morn when I wake up and green tea or chamomile etc before bed. I cut out all carbonated drink and drink only warm/hot water. U know chinese says cold water is not good for your body.

I have only lost 3kgs!! but my tummy has toned up loads...quite flat now and I no longer look pregnant. My upper abs have a bit of definition. Lower abs is still a working progress. I have a lot of inches. That's what you need to aim for. I've stopped constantly weighing myself as the scales make no sense. I can be lighter in midday my weight fluctuates so much when weighing daily.

I love dance cardio. That's the only one I can do without giving up since it's fun and doesn't feel like a workout. Makes you sweat like crazy and out of breath.

 

[Graemsay]

The one rule in weight loss is that you have to consume fewer calories than you burn. And provided that you cover your nutritional bases and avoid excessive amounts of saturated fat or sugars then I don't think that meal timings or ratios of macronutrients (fat, protein and carbs) makes a lot of difference.

(Making this point on a bodybuilding forum nearly got me lynched. It didn't help that I told the other posters they were talking rubbish... )

So it basically comes down to simple mathematics: 1 kg of fat is around 7,700 calories. If you have a deficit of 500 calories per day then you'll lose about 2 kg per month.

Exercise on it's own isn't that good at shifting weight. Running is one of the more intense forms, but to burn off 1 kg of fat this calculator reckons that DWV would have to run around 80 km. What you need to do is combine it with diet.

What you want to do is engineer a deficit of about 500 calories per day split between exercise and diet. (e.g. eat 2500 calories, burn 3000.) This would correspond to losing just under 0.5 kg per week, which is a healthy rate. You could possibly double this, but aim for no more than 1 kg per week.

Weight training is good, and I personally favour free weights and the big compound exercises (bench, squat, deadlift).

If you want to keep the weight off then you need to make lifestyle changes. I lost a bit last year, but spent the last months not living healthily, and have put it back on again.

 

[steveadl]

The one rule in weight loss is that you have to consume fewer calories than you burn. And provided that you cover your nutritional bases and avoid excessive amounts of saturated fat or sugars then I don't think that meal timings or ratios of macronutrients (fat, protein and carbs) makes a lot of difference.

(Making this point on a bodybuilding forum nearly got me lynched. It didn't help that I told the other posters they were talking rubbish... )

I'd strongly disagree with that one. Even ignoring for a moment the bodybuilding side of things.

OK so my BMR is 2900 calories a day, so with a normal day living I burn about 3300 give or take (without any workout). So you're saying if I just consume 2700 calories for the day I'll lose weight? Whilst this is technically true, you can't just ignore the nutrient timing or macronutrient ratios or the results will be very unhealthy. By this logic I could eat nothing all day and just before I go to bed tonight, I can eat 2.6kg of sugar (about 2500 calories) plus perhaps half an Avacado (P-2g, C-7g, F-15g for 171 calories) and lose weight and everything would be great?!

Granted this is an extreme example, but you can't just ignore timing an ratios. I know catabolism doesn't matter as much to the average person, but c'mon!? But then maybe you didn't mean to say macronutirent make up doesn't make a difference since in the sentence before you said you need to cover your nutritional bases?

 

[natmarie73]

I actually don't believe in the no carb diet.

Being asian, you should know that rice does not make you gain weight since how many asians do u know that are stick thin yet eat loads of rice. Rice is our staple diet, it's good carbs. I can exercise everyday, eat healthily but I will not give up rice or even reduce rice in take.

Yes I know. I never said rice or other good carbs will make you gain weight if you are eating a healthy diet. I have cut carbs specifically to lose weight fast and remain in a state of ketosis where my body burns fat as energy instead of carbs. Once I get to an ideal size I can then re-introduce good carbs into my diet but as I don't miss eating rice, pasta, bread or cereal I probably won't as my body doesn't need or crave them and I have much more energy without them.

I also go to the gym 3 - 4 nights a week, play soccer (train twice a week) and in my job I am out of the office in the field a lot so pretty active during the day too.

My diet is working for me, but every body is different and what works for one person won't necessarily work for another. You have to do what is right for your particular lifestyle and body. I just know from previous experience that cutting calories without cutting carbs just won't budge the podge for me.

 

[Slim Pikins]

Pen,

Thanks for the info, interesting perspective on the diet drinks.

DWV

With this diet thing don't forget to measure yourself. A female friend of mine has just started at weight watchers. She told me she is losing x amount of weight, and even though she only lost 1kg for the week she was bragging about the cm's she had lost, she tells me that the measuring is just as important. She said to look at a kilo of steak then look at a kilo of tripe and see the difference in size,

Because muscle weighs more than fat you may not lose weight but you will change your shape.


Slim

 

[RumpledElf]

This is how I've always ate even when I was 52kg but after 3 kids and putting on 10kgs each pregnancy, it's really hard to lose the weight. It's really unfair because I'm not a big eater.

Funny how different people are. Last two pregnancies I put on ~22kg. First time I lost 25kg in 6 months and wound up severely underweight and took years to gain those last few kilos to get back to a healthy weight, second time I lost 22kg in 14 months while stuffing myself senseless (breastfeeding makes you hungry) and then simply stopped being hungry when grumpybum was weaned. This time I've only gained 8kg so far so unless I somehow gain 14kg in 4 months its going to be a LOT easier to lose the weight afterwards. My 'goal' weight is just anything under 68kg, which is about a 15kg overall weight gain. Catch is, now my maternity clothes from last time are too big ...

Meanwhile the other half put on several kilos over Christmas and is having trouble shaking them. So perhaps that's where my weight ended up Can see why he's not losing though - I'm having very big meals and thus so is he. He needs to eat smaller ones. I think if you cut him open, you'd find he consists largely of cheese - we go through about 1kg a week and he's the main cheeseater. And his latest bloodwork came up with him being deficient in some rather important vitamins and mine came up slap bang in the centre of all the 'average' ranges so we definitely eat differently. I think this year, unless he loses some weight, I'm actually going to weigh LESS than him instead of more

 

[Bon]

Nice diet Bon... but I wouldn't say it's very different



I think if you break your addictions, you'll start to feel quite lethargic, fuzzy, moody, and maybe even replace the coffee and alcohol with junk food

Different to what? His original diet? There is a HUGE difference. Protein with every meal, inclusion of good fats, reduction in useless carbs.

I left my place this morning with a container of watermelon, rockmelon, grapes, apples and a banana and an orange I couldn't fit in. Another small container with berries, yogurt and honey for breakfast. There is 8-9 different types of fruit there.

 

[oc1]

Because muscle weighs more than fat you may not lose weight but you will change your shape.

How? 1kg of muscle weighs the SAME as 1kg of fat.

Muscle is heavier by volume than fat. Look up a photo of the two and you will see.

 

[Slim Pikins]

Oscar

Yeah you are right. It does weigh the same. It proves you shouldn't write stuff when you are very very tired.

Every dietitian I have spoken too has used the example of tripe to demonstrate that 1kg of tripe by volume is much larger in size than 1kg of steak

Slim

 

[Graemsay]

Steve, I'd expect that you'd lose weight on your diet above. It just wouldn't be very healthy.

I didn't make my original point particularly well, but I was thinking of macronutrients on a very broad protein / fat / carbohydrate level.

If you're exercising hard you need 1 - 2 g of protein per kg per day. I think that there's a daily requirement of around 30 g (nearly 300 calories) from fat too, but don't quote me on that. Beyond that I don't think that it makes a huge amount of difference whether the rest comes from carbs, fats or whatever.

(Though there is apparently clinical evidence that a high carb, low fat diet is marginally better for weight loss.)

And I'd add a caveat that excessive amounts of saturated fat and unrefined sugar aren't going to be good for you.

In my original argument (on the other forum) my diet plan was criticised for having too much fruit and vegetables in it! I was advised to eliminate these, use vitamin pills to make up for any shortfall in micronutrients, and consume far more protein.

As for meal timings, I don't think that there's significant evidence from clinical trials that six meals are better that three, or any other strategy.

I probably should have also said to try and eat whole foods, cook from scratch and avoid processed and refined foods.

 

[steveadl]

You make a lot of good points Graemsay. Think I'll bow out of this one though as I'm coming from a bodybuilder diet viewpoint so there's still many things I'd disagree with you about, but the OP isn't coming from this angle so perhaps not relevant (wish I could be on 3 meals a day at the moment! )

 

[WinstonWolfe]

Wylie, we're diverging off topic, so I won't comment on electrolytes again in this thread. But hopefully the exercise and energy intake stuff below won't be construed as wildly off topic by the mods.

Thanks Winston. Once again, an answer packed full of information... thank you. But I have a few queries, if you don't mind.

Do the sports scientists not think the sugar content is a bad thing or are they paid by the electrolyte drink companies? Or is the sugar content acceptable because of the good that the rest of the ingredients give? I'm confused.

Whether something is good or bad is dependent on how much you have and your lifestyle. The sugar in the drinks will be rapidly converted to energy, so it doesn't hang around in your system to make you fat. It won't necessarily upset pancreatic function (insulin,glucagon) and blood sugar levels because during cardio, you have higher adrenalin levels facilitating conversion of sugar to energy. The salt isn't bad either because, in appropriate volumes, electrolytes are returning salt concentration to physiologically normal levels.

However, the above doesn't apply to someone sedentary or exercising under 30mins. In the 'olden days', footy players used to take salt tablets with water and have orange quarters at half time - a lot cheaper than powerade.

I had a look and I can chose weight and height, so I will punch in the correct numbers when the kids are home, but just guessing weight and height, it recommended 2.67 drinks for my 18 year old for 90 minutes on a hot day of football. That is a LOT of sugar.

You want to keep in mind the type of exercise and your kid's attitudes. Electrolytes are recommended for sustained aerobic exercise. Rugby, AFL, soccer as performed by many kids' teams, isn't always sustained aerobic ex. I see many kids run and tackle <15% of the time they are on the field. The rest is standing/watching/slow jog/walk. This burns no where near the same number of Calories as continuous cardio.

I think the drinks are the 600ml bottles, so 2.67 is 1.6 litres. Believe it or not, it is easy to lose that much in sweat and the sugar will be burnt off in the 90 minutes easily.

Cyclists in the Tour de France eat energy bars laden with sugar and have a total Calorie intake/expenditure average of 7,000 Cals a day. Their macronutrient profile is fat 20%, pro 15%, cho 65%, which is about the same as recommended for mere mortals. They have 4 bigger than normal meals but rely on concentrated sugar sources primarily when on the bike for the 4-5 hours of the rides. Though there is smaller amounts of starch,pro,fat in their bars to keep a sustained flow of sugar to the blood, without pulling too much blood and energy from the muscles to the digestive tract.

Much of the bad rap sugar gets in society is when sedentary people replace other food sources with sugar, and have too much for their expenditure levels.

Unfortunately, football is 45 minute halfs, but they hit the water bottle in the break, and after.

Do you note how footy trainers bring on the bottles whenever there is time out?

I will try to ensure the older boy drinks more before he plays. Some players cramp up and perhaps they need more water (or salts) before the game.

True.......they also need to warm up properly (note the stationary bikes on the sideline at the elite levels), and stretch dynamically and passively beforehand....and if they've had old strains, these need firm deep tissue massage to break the old adhesions deep in the muscle....otherwise they are prone to further tearing. This is all stuff most coaches should be aware of, but aren't.....a lot of the time because they already think they know everything, so they don't seek out info from more authoratative sources. People motivated to coach kids and teens have a certain personality type which I won't go into here...... Even the majority of physiotherapists and exercise physiologists don't know this stuff well.

I will show him this post. He is a sensible young man and very passionate about his football, so anything that helps him, he will take on board.

For a long time, I have been part of a group petitioning the NRL to make their sports med knowledge freely available to the junior teams. This would reduce injury dramatically in teens. However, the NRL is full of dimwitted secretive ego maniacs. The cost of doing so would be trivial compared to the money that is pumped into the game. The AFL has a much smarter approach and nurtures their juniors better, at least in Melbourne. Another issue is the schools. Once again their coaches think they know it all, or the school doesn't want to pay out for professional sports med advice. It is up to the end consumers (parents) to demand they get better value for money for their school fees. I see too many life changing paediatric injuries that could easily avoided via smarter training, diet, and exercise.

I would appreciate that, thank you.

Will dig it up tonight and PM you.

If I make my own, say using fruit based cordial as a base, (I can get 90% fruit juice cordial - but isn't that a lot of sugar too?), do I need to add glucose? Do his friends who only drink say water NEED salt and glucose? Would his body tell him he needs salt and glucose by cramping? Or could he go a season without those sports drinks, bought OR home made?

The amount of salt and glucose one has depends on sweat rate (heat, humidity, body fat, nervous system, conditioning) and exercise intensity. Some kids aren't as dynamic in their sport. The powerade calculator is designed and endorsed by scientists and is on average a reasonable guide....but you can use your own concoctions which have a similar profile to powerade.

Some kids might tolerate not taking salt and sugar better than others. But the science says all healthy people's physiology will be in a better state if we do take it. Keeping salt and fluid levels up is a major injury preventative premise in sports medicine.

Much of the early onset osteoarthritis ageing footy players have is putated due to underhydrated cartilage during high impact, as during sport and training. Your son's mates won't know about this until their 30s.



Regarding your kid's attitude towards food, kids need to be brought up consistently from when young to understand what is a balanced diet. Not having a go at you Wylie but some parents are a little fuzzy and casual about this themselves. There should be minimal tolerance for kids deviating from healthy staples....and it is all too common these days.

Nevertheless, what I recommend to teens who have ingrained bad attitudes towards diet, BUT also love their sport, is to have a consult with a sports dietitian who deals with elite teams. Your kids are much more likely to listen to him/her. In this respect, I can recommend Sally Garrard, who works with the AIS, Qld Academy of Sport, Brisbane Lions, and is on several advisory boards. She works from the Qld Sports Med Clinic at the Gabba/Lions headquarters, and West End. If you have any sway with your kid's coaches, I'd also recommend some money be thrown at Sally to come out and do a workshop for the whole club.

OK, we better stop talking about this stuff in this thread, start another thread or do it via PM.

 

[dwv]

Hi Sue,

I'm around 5' 9". I didn't have health problems back then when I was in my home country (although still overweight around 90 kg but not obese) but when I came here around 6 years ago, it all started to get out of hand. I gained 20 kgs here the first few months... I was used to walking and taking the bus going to work, stroll around for a few hours after work... Here, it's a totally different lifestyle. First, I was stressed-out/depressed looking for work for the first 3 months... no tennis, no walking, just stay home hooked online applying for work, potluck parties with friends every weekend, binge eat, sleep, look for work, eat, sleep.

After 3 months, the world was spinning literally! I woke up one morning and I was very dizzy even when I was lying in bed. My feet were swollen! Went to the doctor and was diagnosed with high blood pressure. I was 110 kg was told to reduce weight or he'll put me on medication. Lost around 5 kg but was given the medication eventually as I wasn't able to maintain weight.

So for the last 4-5 years it was "normal" but still struggling with weight... until I had my blood test last month - high cholesterol, high uric acid, fatty liver... the list goes on. So, finally, I've decided to do something about it and hopefully, I can sustain it for the rest of my life.

There are so many opinions here so it's a bit confusing. I'll have to seek professional help initially regarding my exercise routine and diet. But my general plan is to stick with the daily exercise (an hour a day with 1 rest day per week), plan healthy weekly menus which I know I would enjoy, minimise sugar and salt, avoid animal fat, chicken skin and deep-fried foods as much as possible, have a cheat day once in a while (once a week, probably) but don't gorge and take it in small portions. I think that's the most sensible way rather than counting calories, carbs and proteins. (athough now I'm also looking at labels and their contents)

Hopefully I'll have the will and the sense to maintain it.

I actually don't believe in the no carb diet.

Being asian, you should know that rice does not make you gain weight since how many asians do u know that are stick thin yet eat loads of rice. Rice is our staple diet, it's good carbs. I can exercise everyday, eat healthily but I will not give up rice or even reduce rice in take.

How tall are you? My husband is 5'11' and about 95kgs, he's bordering overweight but looks ok. I am concerned though at the amount of visceral fat content. That's the dangerous fat between your organs that causes health problems. It's only through regular exercise that you can eliminate that fat. To get an idea of the visceral fat, you would need an MRI..it's not measurable.

You have to exercise, everyday and maintain a healthy diet and could still go weeks without losing even 1kg. But losing weight slowly is the BEST way to lose weight because any other fad diets would make you put it all back on plus more as soon as you stop. Do what you are comfortable with and you feel you can maintain all the time.

I am asian too, I eat out at least 3x a week, I ate loads over CNY!! I love food. I have not really changed my eating habits too much as I'm not a big eater anyway. This is how I've always ate even when I was 52kg but after 3 kids and putting on 10kgs each pregnancy, it's really hard to lose the weight. It's really unfair because I'm not a big eater.

For about 3mths now I've done 1hr cardio each night which also includes a bit of weight resistance training (do cardio first) and I drink a hot glass of water each morn when I wake up and green tea or chamomile etc before bed. I cut out all carbonated drink and drink only warm/hot water. U know chinese says cold water is not good for your body.

I have only lost 3kgs!! but my tummy has toned up loads...quite flat now and I no longer look pregnant. My upper abs have a bit of definition. Lower abs is still a working progress. I have a lot of inches. That's what you need to aim for. I've stopped constantly weighing myself as the scales make no sense. I can be lighter in midday my weight fluctuates so much when weighing daily.

I love dance cardio. That's the only one I can do without giving up since it's fun and doesn't feel like a workout. Makes you sweat like crazy and out of breath.

 

[dwv]

Pen,

Thanks for the info, interesting perspective on the diet drinks.

DWV

With this diet thing don't forget to measure yourself. A female friend of mine has just started at weight watchers. She told me she is losing x amount of weight, and even though she only lost 1kg for the week she was bragging about the cm's she had lost, she tells me that the measuring is just as important. She said to look at a kilo of steak then look at a kilo of tripe and see the difference in size,

Because muscle weighs more than fat you may not lose weight but you will change your shape.


Slim

Hi Slim,

Lost an inch already. It's a start!

dwv

 

[WinstonWolfe]

With this diet thing don't forget to measure yourself. A female friend of mine has just started at weight watchers. She told me she is losing x amount of weight, and even though she only lost 1kg for the week she was bragging about the cm's she had lost, she tells me that the measuring is just as important.

I agree with this Slim. Measuring your waist and hips (buttocks) is much more meaningful than what the scales say, in the big scheme of things.

However, the advantage of the scales is that they provide more sensitive feedback. So if you plot daily weight on a graph, you more quickly see when you are deviating from your prescribed daily Calorie deficit. (Weight has to be plotted with reasonably consistent digital scales, first thing in the morning, around the same time, after emptying your bladder and before taking any fluids or solids. A good pee can weigh half a kg).

Daily wt measurement works like a guided missile system. You are using more regular and sensitive feedback to make smaller adjustments to your lifestyle, to stay truer to your weight loss goals.

Waist and butt measurements are notoriously variable over anything less than a month.

Below is a plot of daily weight loss that is achievable when energy expenditure and intake is measured accurately. the blank period was when the client went on an overseas trip and went off the rails a bit. The red line is the predicted wt based on sustaining a fixed Calorie deficit.