Expensive Private Schools

[geoffw]

This thread seems to be going the same way as the truck driver thread.

I do find it interesting to note the vast amount of entrepreneurs who were high school drop outs. The school system is an invention of the industrial revolution and as such is (in it's very design) geared towards creating worker drones.

ENTER (or TER) scores are worth very little once you turn 21 (mature age entry).

There are entrepeneurs who are uni graduates (Buffet, Carlos Slim); some of the others who famously did not finish uni were perhaps too smart for the tertiary education system (Gates, Jobs).

But there are also many who didn't do at all well at school.

TER is perhaps a good indicator for the majority who follow a mainstream white collar job. It provides an indicator of one particular sort of ability. There are many other sorts of ability, some of which can lead to very fulfilling careers.

 

[Aaron_C]

I do find it interesting to note the vast amount of entrepreneurs who were high school drop outs.

Focusing on the exception rather than the rule is a fallacy. Out of 1,000 drop outs, how many become (successful) entrepreneurs? Being an entrepreneur is more linked to someone's personality and drive rather than whether they were a high school drop out or not. I would say that most high school drop outs end up working at places like McDonalds for 20-30 years. On a law of averages, it's not good.

The school system is an invention of the industrial revolution and as such is (in it's very design) geared towards creating worker drones.

In many ways yes but as part of any economy you always need workers to work for the entrepreneurs. Not everyone is cut out to be a businessman - some people are just not good at sales or smart enough.

ENTER (or TER) scores are worth very little once you turn 21 (mature age entry).

It loses its value after year 12. However, the achievement stays with you forever. What I don't understand is people saying 'oh getting a high school in year 12 is pointless because you can just transfer anyway' - this is false. In order to transfer into another course at university, you actually have to do well in that first course. If you were going to try hard in first year, then why not try hard in year 12 and get in the first time, guaranteed? It is rationalisation from lazy people who are looking for an excuse to justify scores that are inadequate for their desired course.

 

[HotRod]

There are entrepeneurs who are uni graduates (Buffet, Carlos Slim); some of the others who famously did not finish uni were perhaps too smart for the tertiary education system (Gates, Jobs).

But there are also many who didn't do at all well at school.

TER is perhaps a good indicator for the majority who follow a mainstream white collar job. It provides an indicator of one particular sort of ability. There are many other sorts of ability, some of which can lead to very fulfilling careers.

The TER is just a grander form of IQ ranking.

My eldest son had an IQ test when he was younger and put him about the 99th percentile whilst his TER of 99.1 pretty matched matched his ranking for his IQ.

Schools teach for a higher IQ.

I would say entrepreneurs have high EQ, which is not taught in school.

 

[luce.rocks]

What I don't understand is people saying 'oh getting a high school in year 12 is pointless because you can just transfer anyway' - this is false. In order to transfer into another course at university, you actually have to do well in that first course. If you were going to try hard in first year, then why not try hard in year 12 and get in the first time, guaranteed? It is rationalisation from lazy people who are looking for an excuse to justify scores that are inadequate for their desired course.

Hmm, sometimes you work hard, get good school exam results, good school ranking, think you did well in the external exams but it turns out your marker disagrees and your TER comes up a bit short of what you expected.

But even if that's not the case, I think being able to transfer courses is a great way for kids who maybe weren't motivated in year 12 for whatever reason (lazy teachers, lazy peers, more concerned with popularity or sports, etc., being smart wasn't cool, family issues, whatever), who get to uni and are energised by their new environment, to get a second chance to work hard and get into a different course. Good for the uni too because they're getting a smart, motivated student.

 

[CHAOS]

Hmm, sometimes you work hard, get good school exam results, good school ranking, think you did well in the external exams but it turns out your marker disagrees and your TER comes up a bit short of what you expected.

But even if that's not the case, I think being able to transfer courses is a great way for kids who maybe weren't motivated in year 12 for whatever reason (lazy teachers, lazy parents, lazy kid, lazy peers, more concerned with popularity or sports, etc., being smart wasn't cool, family issues, whatever), who get to uni and are energised by their new environment, to get a second chance to work hard and get into a different course. Good for the uni too because they're getting a smart, motivated student.

Year 12 is very stressful for some students. Some are that focused on their ATAR that they think their life will be over if they don't get into x university and x course. Showing them a plan b - different uni or transferring in 12mths helps reduce the anxiety and pressure. All they can do is their best. Like mentioned above, they may just miss out, it is not the end of the world.

 

[luce.rocks]

Year 12 is very stressful for some students. Some are that focused on their ATAR that they think their life will be over if they don't get into x university and x course. Showing them a plan b - different uni or transferring in 12mths helps reduce the anxiety and pressure. All they can do is their best. Like mentioned above, they may just miss out, it is not the end of the world.

No argument from me. Didn't mean to convey otherwise with my post.

 

[VYBerlinaV8]

A TER is relevant for about 3 months - as long as it takes to get into uni. After that it is meaningless.

Getting into a difficult degree is far easier than actually completing one. And if you're doing an easy degree then it doesn't really matter anyway.

 

[Nemo30]

Year 12 is very stressful for some students. Some are that focused on their ATAR that they think their life will be over if they don't get into x university and x course. Showing them a plan b - different uni or transferring in 12mths helps reduce the anxiety and pressure. All they can do is their best. Like mentioned above, they may just miss out, it is not the end of the world.

I agree. My son finished Yr 12 last year - I made sure he knew there were so many pathways to get where he wanted to get. As well as uni we looked at TAFE courses, private courses, alternative Uni entrance courses.

If he didnt get the score he needed, it wasnt the end of the world. Also made sure he knew how often people change careers and that what he wants to do now may not be his job forever.

In the end he got into what he wanted to do at Uni and is very happy. I'm surprised how many of his friends who did accredited subjects are now trying to get into uni via these alternative pathways....and getting in.

 

[china]

A TER is relevant for about 3 months - as long as it takes to get into uni. After that it is meaningless.

.

But this vital stage can /will affect you for the rest of your life. It can start you on the road to millions as a barrister or surgeon versus driving taxis with an arts degree in medieval history.

 

[CHAOS]

No argument from me. Didn't mean to convey otherwise with my post.

My comment there was in support of yours. There is more than one way to get into the course of your choice if the first method doesn't work out.


RE: lazy teachers. The teachers teach, advise and equip students with strategies to successfully tackle tasks. (Agree some can be better in their delivery than others - people also learn differently) Teachers can't revise for a student, they can't read additional material, they can't write practice essays or do practice exams for the students. They can discipline and advise parents when homework / revision / study / preparation which is the students responsibility has not occurred. Does the parent support the teacher, or lay blame. Does the parent makes excuses for the child's lack of study or do they discipline their child and keep a closer eye on what they are doing with their time at home? The best recipe for the student is to have parents and teachers working together for the same aim - what is best for the child.

 

[geoffw]

I worked extremely hard in year 12. I got good results- I topped the school. But I didn't need results that good- I would have been able to get into my science course back then with lower schools. I did get a government scholarship, but that was based on exams earlier in the year- more IQ than knowledge.

Although those results were not directly of use to me, I learnt how to work my butt off. Every now and then I've had to do that again. Especially in business.

 

[Nemo30]

But this vital stage can /will affect you for the rest of your life. It can start you on the road to millions as a barrister or surgeon versus driving taxis with an arts degree in medieval history.

If you want to be a barrister or surgeon, it may affect you. Otherwise probably not.

 

[china]

I agree. My son finished Yr 12 last year - I made sure he knew there were so many pathways to get where he wanted to get. As well as uni we looked at TAFE courses, private courses, alternative Uni entrance courses.

If he didnt get the score he needed, it wasnt the end of the world. Also made sure he knew how often people change careers and that what he wants to do now may not be his job forever.

In the end he got into what he wanted to do at Uni and is very happy. I'm surprised how many of his friends who did accredited subjects are now trying to get into uni via these alternative pathways....and getting in.

Why waste time and risk uncertainty with alternative pathways? The sooner you finish uni, the sooner you can move on to the next stage of life such as financial independence, retirement, world travel, etc.

If you can excel at every level - high TER, first class honours at uni, - your road will be a lot smoother than someone who is mediocre at every level and makes excuses that poor performance is acceptable. A lot of the top law graduates become judges and senior counsel just as a lot of top medical graduates become surgeons. In the professions, there is a strong correlation between high academic performance and eventual career outcome. There are always exceptions to the rule of course.

 

[china]

I worked extremely hard in year 12. I got good results- I topped the school. But I didn't need results that good- I would have been able to get into my science course back then with lower schools. I did get a government scholarship, but that was based on exams earlier in the year- more IQ than knowledge.

Although those results were not directly of use to me, I learnt how to work my butt off. Every now and then I've had to do that again. Especially in business.

A high TER is a reflection of multiple factors : intelligence, aptitude, ability, dedication, committment, family support and hard work. All of which are essential and desirable attributes to success in life.

 

[TurkieSub]

This brings me back to a time when I was at a party when I was about 20. At the time I was an apprentice butcher, had only got 44.9 TER score, and generally confused on what I was doing in life. My folks had all the pressures on my younger sister, who was the golden child of the family, to produce the results.

I remember this one bloke (med student, who's party it was) introduced me to people with their first name, then their TER score immediately after. Of course being med students the figures were really high. I was taken back by how much of a Wayne Kerr this guy was, and how much some people cling to something that's somewhat irrelevant. By the way, girl med students were....... easy you could say

I'm still in acquaintances with the guy over social media, but it makes me laugh how he has turned into a faux hippy, and getting back to his roots...... And I ended up studying full time to become a surveyor, and run jobs over in the resources sector 5 years later......

 

[Nemo30]

Why waste time and risk uncertainty with alternative pathways? The sooner you finish uni, the sooner you can move on to the next stage of life such as financial independence, retirement, world travel, etc.

If you can excel at every level - high TER, first class honours at uni, - your road will be a lot smoother than someone who is mediocre at every level and makes excuses that poor performance is acceptable. A lot of the top law graduates become judges and senior counsel just as a lot of top medical graduates become surgeons. In the professions, there is a strong correlation between high academic performance and eventual career outcome. There are always exceptions to the rule of course.

Or, you could have a well rounded child whose academic performance doesn't define them. He didn't need to be a top student to do the course he is passionate about. He doesn't want to be a surgeon or a judge, he just wants to do what makes him happy.

 

[china]

Or, you could have a well rounded child whose academic performance doesn't define them. He didn't need to be a top student to do the course he is passionate about. He doesn't want to be a surgeon or a judge, he just wants to do what makes him happy.

Thats very true. But this thread is about the financial worth of expensive private schools whose main premise is that it may offer a better chance of a high TER. My point is that TER is quite important at one stage in life and can have significant ramifications for the rest of the person's life. If you believe that education is an important part of a child's upbringing, then doing everything you can for your child to maximise TER (an arbitrary benchmark of education success) may involve expensive private schools.

 

[cimbom]

I'm not advocating doing "poorly" at school. Anyone who gets say in the 80s or above, which is an A-grade average, is capable of completing pretty much any uni course.

What I was saying is that lots of people put their kids into private school solely because of the system of "scaling" that exists in Australia (as per my previous post). If most people in your school do well then it pushes your results up. It is harder to do extremely well (i.e. high 90s) in schools in poorer areas because of this. It doesn't mean that said person is significantly less intelligence or dedicated - just that perhaps their classmates are.

A very high TER just reflects the fact that your parents likely had the money to send you to a school where everyone is the same high social standing as yourself. Nothing more than that. Let's not kid ourselves that it does.

I don't consider myself particularly special or gifted and I've just proved how unimportant these results are with multiple examples.

I've read a few articles online where parents who sent their kids to expensive private schools solely or largely for year 12 grades end up very resentful when their kid is doing the same uni degree as Pedro from St Albans

 

[Nemo30]

Thats very true. But this thread is about the financial worth of expensive private schools whose main premise is that it may offer a better chance of a high TER. My point is that TER is quite important at one stage in life and can have significant ramifications for the rest of the person's life. If you believe that education is an important part of a child's upbringing, then doing everything you can for your child to maximise TER (an arbitrary benchmark of education success) may involve expensive private schools.

I dont think a good education is just about maximising TER. A good education is about building skills and knowledge for life - whatever path your child chooses to take.

 

[cimbom]

I dont think a good education is just about maximising TER. A good education is about building skills and knowledge for life - whatever path your child chooses to take.

Exactly. If people want to send their kids to "good" schools for that reason then I think that is very commendable. Many just want the bragging rights of a high score though.