Expensive Private Schools

As many have pointed out to me, earning capacity is not the sole indicator of success.

Whilst a high TER may or may not be a major factor in success, it does open many doors and allows greater opportunities. It does not hurt to have a high TER but leaving school aged 12 will impede most people in our society but again, I accept that many exceptions can be cited. I am yet to see a High Court judge who was a total academic failure throughout their entire school and uni days.
I know maybe a dozen very, very wealthy and successful people.

None of them has ever mentioned their education level that I can remember.

One guy went to Caulfield Grammar, but owns a successful insurance broker business. Made his money to start off from renovating an old clunker with a friend in a postcode suburb.

It really is not that important in the game of (financial) success.

It is in a few industries, but only a few.
 
None of them has ever mentioned their education level that I can remember.

It really is not that important in the game of (financial) success.

It is in a few industries, but only a few.

No need to mention education level - that would be called bragging if you had done very well. Would offend those with less.

But in many professions, a certain education level would be assumed. If someone was responsible for my freedom (barrister) or held my life in their hands (surgeon), I would want the best and brightest with a track record of excellent performance in all areas of endeavour from age 1.
 
But this vital stage can /will affect you for the rest of your life. It can start you on the road to millions as a barrister or surgeon versus driving taxis with an arts degree in medieval history.

Plenty of doctors and barristers didn't get top TERs, just like not all top TER achievers go on to do great things, or even have decent jobs.

Academic success is commendable, but often not relevant to the real world. There are also multiple paths into the high end uni degree courses that don't require a high TER.
 
Hi All
For those who can afford to foot the bill for the private, very expensive schools would like to know has it really been worth it?? Personally, I would rather spend the money on European holiday for the family, perhaps there is more of an education in this.

I have two children, first child private expensive school, second public school.

From my experience I would say don't spend the money on private, would like to know what others think???:)

I do think it has been good for us going public. I'm glad I haven't had to work and we spend a lot of school holidays visiting different parts of Australia. I think it's been good educationally for my kids to have driven from Brisbane to Perth twice, one trip via Uluru. :rolleyes: My son was a bit confused he had a question in school to name this rock. My son didn't know how to spell Ulluru so wrote Ayers Rock and he was marked wrong. I'm sure he'd know more about the place than the teacher. My daughters friend spent the first 5 years of her schooling at a public primary school near us. I didn't send my daughter there as my daughters daycare teacher warned it was rough and my quiet, sensitive daughter would struggle. I think my daughters friend is very resilient and strong, from some of her schooling experiences. She moved house and ended up at the same public school as my daughter. She got dux of the school, Maths award 99 or 98% and science award. She is attending a public high school and has been in Europe for the past few weeks on holiday and i do think they are great experiences. I think there is good and bad in everything. Although I didn't like my high school it did give me a drive to achieve financially.
 
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Plenty of doctors and barristers didn't get top TERs, just like not all top TER achievers go on to do great things, or even have decent jobs.

Academic success is commendable, but often not relevant to the real world. There are also multiple paths into the high end uni degree courses that don't require a high TER.

Up until about 1993, in NSW, the only means of entry to a top medical school Uni Sydney / UNSW for a high school grad was TER. The cut off was 99.45. So up to that stage, the vast majority of doctors had high TER. Sure there were exceptions made for a few - post-grad entry - but it is only after 1993, that entry to medicine became a post grad event and standards have been dropping ever since.

Generally though, the top doctors and barristers are usually life long over-acheivers - having an excellent record since primary school, then high school, then uni, then post-grad surgical training. Similar for the top barristers and judges.
 
To me, private school is a status symbol.
No different than the fancy house, car, clothes and restaurant choices.

I may think this because because I quit high school after grade 11, moved out of home at 17, and started my life.


The ones stating they sent their kids to private, because the state of public is terrible. Shame it is good enough for everyone else.

If tomorrow, hypothetically, all private schools were banned.There may be an outcry, and the public school system may improve.

Personally, I think kids do better when exposed to kids from different backgrounds and income levels. They may understand not everyone has parents who buy them everything.

If you think private schools are safe from drugs....you are an ostrich.
 
Up until about 1993, in NSW, the only means of entry to a top medical school Uni Sydney / UNSW for a high school grad was TER. The cut off was 99.45. So up to that stage, the vast majority of doctors had high TER. Sure there were exceptions made for a few - post-grad entry - but it is only after 1993, that entry to medicine became a post grad event and standards have been dropping ever since.

Right, so the US and Canada with their only post-grad medical schools with actual high standards can't compare to the Australian unis with their largely rich students with purchased TER scores? Don't kid yourself. Do you know what the requirements are to get into even a top 50 med school in the United States?

It seems like someone is a bit bitter that the broke public school kids are taking the spots that they thought they were entitled to :p
 
Right, so the US and Canada with their only post-grad medical schools with actual high standards can't compare to the Australian unis with their largely rich students with purchased TER scores? Don't kid yourself. Do you know what the requirements are to get into even a top 50 med school in the United States?

You are comparing apples to zebras. North America has a long history of post-grad entry into medicine and entry to Ivy League med schools has very high entry standards, of which previous academic achievement in college and high school is one of many criteria for selection.

In Australia, we have recently had a proliferation of medical schools in the past ten years. The increased supply and the switch to post-grad entry have dropped the entry standards significantly and are no where near a fraction of the entry criteria of top American institutions. These days, there is no guarantee of any quality in current medical school entrants whereas in the past, with a high TER being the sole criteria, you knew that at least at some point in their life, they were able to read and write reasonably well.
 
If you think private schools are safe from drugs....you are an ostrich.

I had twelve years of private (but not so expensive) Catholic schooling. When I was in year 8 I remember asking my parents why had they sent me to a private high school. My mum said it was because the public schools had drugs. My dad looked at my mum in exasperation, and said, don't be ridiculous, the only difference is that the kids at private schools can afford better drugs.

Still makes me grin when I remember the exchange. He was right, too.

The other thing I do remember is when some of the girls got their driver's licenses, they drove to school in nicer cars than the teachers owned. Never forgotten that.
 
China, why was medicine (and other professional areas) made post-grad in the United States? It wasn't always the case. They changed it because good high school grades were not considered competitive enough - they needed to have additional factors on which to differentiate between applicants.

Australian unis are noticing the same thing. To be a good doctor (or other professional), you need a lot more than a few good exam results. My husband was told by staff at his uni that historically, there have been problems with med students who get good scores in their year 12 exams but struggle when it comes to developing a good rapport with patients and general communication skills.

This is why there is now more emphasis on interviews, groupwork assessments and more "soft" skills in the admissions process. It is becoming more common because it works well.

Why was there such a big outcry when the Melbourne Model was introduced? The rich kids started feeling threatened that their previously "guaranteed" path of 99+ TER into medicine was no longer going to be there.

Many are not dedicated enough to persevere through a generic Science degree with an uncertain future. I think this is great as it weeds out those who are doing it just so they don't "waste" their TER score or because it's what their parents want.

I'll take your word for it if you can show me something that states that graduate medical students are of lower standard than school leavers. i find that laughable in the extreme.

And I wasn't talking Ivy League btw - they're on another planet. I said top 50 unis. I just did a quick Google and apparently the University of Utah is ranked #50 in the US at present. This is the list of admission requirements:
- Average GPA of 3.7 (i.e. pretty much HD average - this is the mode score, not median);
- Average MCAT score in top 20% of applicants;
- Established volunteer work every year for 4 years prior to applying;
- An average of 3 community leadership roles;
- Average of 3 months spent in research role; and
- Average of 3 months spent in patient exposure role

Notice that high school grades aren't mentioned? I think the above qualities/attributes say a lot more about the potential of a student than some purchased score.

Please don't make claims when there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that that is the case.
 
China, why was medicine (and other professional areas) made post-grad in the United States? It wasn't always the case. They changed it because good high school grades were not considered competitive enough - they needed to have additional factors on which to differentiate between applicants.

Australian unis are noticing the same thing. To be a good doctor (or other professional), you need a lot more than a few good exam results. My husband was told by staff at his uni that historically, there have been problems with med students who get good scores in their year 12 exams but struggle when it comes to developing a good rapport with patients and general communication skills.

This is why there is now more emphasis on interviews, groupwork assessments and more "soft" skills in the admissions process. It is becoming more common because it works well.



What you have written is all very true and accurate. The supposed rationale for change to post-grad entry is that high TER was no guarantee of communication skills and human empathy.

The red hot debate, and this very topic deserves a forum of its own, is what really constitutes a good doctor.

Some of us believe that a good doctor should have hard core academic /intellectual skills - they should be good scientists as they interpret the latest science and apply it to the benefit of the patient. This is what truly differentiates the doctor from other valuable professionals in the health care team - understanding of the physiology and anatomy behind disease process. The softer skills are of secondary importance, in our opinion, because being able to communicate /demonstrate rapport and empathy is often demonstrated by anyone from used car salesmen and property spruikers.

However, the hardliners/traditionalists have lost out as is evidenced by the widespread transition to medical school entry by means of interviews and other "communication" / group work exercises which selects people that present well to other people but really have far less intellectual skills upstairs than the undergrad medical students of old who were selected predominantly with a high TER.

The art of medicine has overwhelmingly usurped the science of medicine.


I'll take your word for it if you can show me something that states that graduate medical students are of lower standard than school leavers. i find that laughable in the extreme.
This is hard to demonstrate because there is no universal agreement as to what really constitutes a good doctor and hence, there are no real objective measures of what constitutes a good doctor.

However, the anecdotal evidence when you talk to established doctors, that is those, with more than ten years since medical school is that many believe that more recent medical school graduates, that is, current interns/residents and current medical students are of a lower calibre than ever before.

The average patient / lay person often thinks that a doctor is good if they are "nice" and smiles and talks to them. So a surgeon could have terrible technical skills but many patients will still think that they are great because they are "nice". This is what medical schools produce these days - "nice" doctors.


And I wasn't talking Ivy League btw - they're on another planet. I said top 50 unis. I just did a quick Google and apparently the University of Utah is ranked #50 in the US at present. This is the list of admission requirements:
- Average GPA of 3.7 (i.e. pretty much HD average - this is the mode score, not median);
- Average MCAT score in top 20% of applicants;
- Established volunteer work every year for 4 years prior to applying;
- An average of 3 community leadership roles;
- Average of 3 months spent in research role; and
- Average of 3 months spent in patient exposure role

Notice that high school grades aren't mentioned? I think the above qualities/attributes say a lot more about the potential of a student than some purchased score.

Please don't make claims when there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that that is the case.

In North America just as in Oz, your high school results are important to getting you into the best undergrad universities where you achieve your GPA. Entry to top American schools often require letters of reference from your undergrad course supervisors and a letter from someone from UCLA is far more influential than a letter from a university based in the back of Alaska. So in the overall journey to medical school and beyond, high school results are vital at some stage and then loses relevance quickly.
 
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In Australia, we have recently had a proliferation of medical schools in the past ten years. The increased supply and the switch to post-grad entry have dropped the entry standards significantly and are no where near a fraction of the entry criteria of top American institutions. These days, there is no guarantee of any quality in current medical school entrants whereas in the past, with a high TER being the sole criteria, you knew that at least at some point in their life, they were able to read and write reasonably well.

This is true, but as I posted previously, there's a big difference between getting into a tough degree course and actually finishing it. As long as the degree standards for completion of each unit haven't dropped, I don't see the problem. Australia needs more doctors, this is a great way to achieve it.
 
This is true, but as I posted previously, there's a big difference between getting into a tough degree course and actually finishing it. As long as the degree standards for completion of each unit haven't dropped, I don't see the problem. Australia needs more doctors, this is a great way to achieve it.

VY Berlina, thats a good point.

However, unfortunately, along with relaxed standards of entry, and this is inevitable with the tripling of universities with medical schools in Australia over the past ten years - the standards for completion of medical school have also dropped markedly. This is certainly the perception of many established doctors.

For instance in NSW, we went from 3 medical schools (Syd, NSW Newcastle) to now seven - ANU in canberra, Uni Western Sydney, Notre Dame and Wollongong.

These last four almost sprung up overnight utilising minor peripheral hospitals that used to be the minor offshoot of the three main schools. They are untested and the staff that do the teaching are unknown quantities. So you have doctor x, working for many years in Campbelltown hospital or canberra hospital suddenly being appointed professor of surgery at the new uni of western sydney medical school. Whilst doctor x is chuffed with his new title, does he really know how to conduct medical education? Hence, graduates from these newer institutions are of variable quality.

Furthermore, you have the conversion of a six year undergrad medical course to a four year post-grad course. Hence two years of course material that older graduates have been taught is now been deemed irrelevant to our new age graduates. So you often have someone who has done a history degree and then go on to a four year medical degree based out of Campbelltown or Wollongong. And then they are released on to unsuspecting Mr. Joe.

With uncontrolled supply, there is inevitable drop in quality. It is akin to cheap Chinese or Indian imports that flood the clothing or car market.

The tsunami of medical graduates from australian medical schools has received media coverage in both mainstream and medical media.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/hospitals-buckle-in-tsunami-of-interns-20090724-dw5z.html

So yes, sadly, standards of entry and exit have dropped.
 
I think the most important thing for my kids is to:

- teach them the value of money and financial astuteness
- reinforce that they can be anything they want in life and be a success at it (AND BE HAPPY) as long as they perservere and have a never give up attitude
- steer them in the direction where their dreams lie or if if theyre unsure, push them towards career/business options that matches their strengths, abilities and inclinations
- drum into them that they have to make their own way in this world, and not rely on inheritances and handouts
- make sure they're street savvy

Schools unfortunately don't foster entrepreneurial spirit, and that I feel is one of the most important elements that facilitates success beyond school age.

On that basis, I'm not too fussed on private vs public...as long as the public school has an ok reputation. FYI, I went to both public and a pretty prestigious private school.
 
Schools unfortunately don't foster entrepreneurial spirit, and that I feel is one of the most important elements that facilitates success beyond school age.

I agree with this. I went to an elite private school. Now, 15 years on, the head prefect, the dux of the school, the guys that were great at athletics - they haven't translated that success they had at school into real life. In fact of all my classmates, you could only say that 10% are successful right now compared to the average...

The problem with any school, private or public, even university, is that it enforces an institution mentality. It constantly reinforces you to become slaves to the system, and it reinforces you to believe that this is the right path to future success. The truth is it dampens imagination and creativity. Thats why you hear stories of elite school kids floundering once they enter uni, and becoming addicted to drugs and booze. It's also why the majority of millionaires haven't always had higher education.

This is discussed heavily in the book "The Education Of Millionaires" which I'd highly recommend is worth reading...

I think "real-life" education is learnt at home. My Dad was into property. As a boy he took me to many open homes. Dad also has a business. And so that philosophy of not being dependant on the government, and taking control of your future, stuck with me... I think having good parents teaching their kids about "life" will leave more of a lasting impression than any school teacher ever could...
 
monalisa and I went to probably one of the worst schools in Sydney and scored in mid 90's.

I went and did a course that only needed 84 from memory.

Going forward I couldn't care less as what matters is what we do now in terms of investing.

Sure we worked hard and that allowed us to get good jobs but it doesn't feature in our end game.
 
Thats correct. But a high TER has to be a reflection that something has gone right for the child - whether it be intelligence, good school, dedication, committment, peers with good values, hard work. A private school or better still, a top governement selective school provides a good environment where peers are more likely to be focussed on earning a high TER and possess the above mentioned attributes.

Having a high TER/UAI does not determine if you will be financially successful. I know heaps of people with UAIs from 95 - 100, where their financial intelligence is zilch. May be they have been prepared for a J.O.B. but - again, it does not mean they are able to think 'outside the box'. As travel bug said, Nathan Birch is a great example of having done great, and is proud of his UAI.
 
Interesting thing about dr's is that they are often not good investors.

My theory is that they have their own area of expertise which they are very good at , but they've forgotten the amount of work it took to get to that level of expertise .

They're used to making correct decisions , so when they come to other areas eg investing , most don't put the amount of time in that is necessary to get to a level of competence .

Also there is a community expectation that " you're a doctor so you must be wealthy " and many are fooled into a sense of complacency by this . I only woke up to this when I was around 40 and been working hard to correct this since then.

Cliff
 
Interesting thing about dr's is that they are often not good investors.

My theory is that they have their own area of expertise which they are very good at , but they've forgotten the amount of work it took to get to that level of expertise .

They're used to making correct decisions , so when they come to other areas eg investing , most don't put the amount of time in that is necessary to get to a level of competence .

Also there is a community expectation that " you're a doctor so you must be wealthy " and many are fooled into a sense of complacency by this . I only woke up to this when I was around 40 and been working hard to correct this since then.

Cliff

If you are a busy doctor, even if you do not invest, as long as you do not splurge, you cannot avoid being wealthy.
 
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